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To: alt.magick,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick.goetia,alt.paranormal.spells.hexes.magic From: nagasivaSubject: Success in Magical Operations Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 12:39:32 GMT 50030729 viii om "sned the bold" asks a third party: #> what exactly do you mean by "success?" usually it means perception of evidence of the intended result. this may have been internally fabricated or faked in order to shore up an effectless or failed rite or operation. it may also be unscrutinized as regards the likelihood of the result having occurred without the magic having been employed (what I call 'Stoplight Magic' -- enjoyable as entertainment or deception in a kind of stage magic way, but not demonstrating anything unusual other than an ability to predict the immediate future and mimic causing the events which ensue). #> by definition a neophyte has not built up the experience #> and "deep structures" necessary to make completion of an #> "advanced" ritual "meaningful." establishing who is a Neophyte is sometimes problematic except in the most obvious societal ceremonial systems. please explain what you think a Neophyte is and how you can tell one from someone who is more advanced within the system you are describing. 'by definition' here would appear to be from a rather restricted paradigmatic set. there are many contextual evaluations of what is possible to those relatively new to spellcasting or ritual magic, including amazing or miraculous results because of natural predisposition. #> imagine trying to make sense out of the GD adept #> minor ritual without first having read the knowledge #> lectures. is intellectualizing the same as magical work? making sense out of something does not seem to be the same thing as achieving a result on a plane removed from our direct observation and thence again to the apparent world. "Tom" : # Success is rarely defined well enough to declare any # ritual was not a "success" in some way or another. this is quite true, though some mages are realistic about their skill level and set realistic parameters of result by which they measure it in extent and time. extent -- small things like 'get a job' or 'achieve financial stability' are fairly easy to ascertain time -- typically some period is set for the success to be attained, such as within 3 weeks, or signs of movement within 3 days mystical and extra-physical success is more difficult to measure, may have some element of societal influence as its intended result, and may also attempt as part of its overall goal an internal change to the magician. arguably some ceremonial operations have this as their entire aim and their success/failure probably only discernable to the magician and hir companions over time. # Even more rare is the ritual that is not "meaningful" # to the one performing it. sometimes that is all that the magician seeks to obtain -- meaning. one might describe this as a religious rite. #> of course, there is certainly something to be learned #> from making a fool out of yourself. humility for example. it isn't always established when the fool is made except in certain cultural responses (as when a group knows that a given method or result ought to be apparent and the 'fool' is doing something else). the relative assessment may just indicate the prejudices of the assessing group. # Only if you can admit that you made a fool of yourself. ascertaining it is preliminary. admitting it thereafter the real work of humility, agreed. nagasiva
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