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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.satanism
From: I@no.self (!)
Subject: Re: Self, Buddhism, Satanism
Date: 27 May 1997 20:21:45 -0700

49970514 AA1  Hail Satan!

carl@axys.net (Carl) and I are STILL discussing this:
#> #> #engaging in "Magick" relieves the small self momentarily from the
#> #> #feeling of helplessness, and bolsters  its feeling of causality, however
#> #> #erroneous.

!:
#> #> in this you remove the k from magick and it becomes magic.  no more Kteis.
#> #> no more 11th letter.  no more mystery, no more development.  no more self,
#> #> no more arising of motivation.  remove the Prime Cause instead and there
#> #> can be magick once again, despite the lack of an 'I'.  else locate the i
#> #> inside the I and suddenly the magician exists.

Carl:
#> #I would like to fully comprehend this. Please elaborate, because i
#> #believe the last sentence points close to what i am saying.

!: 
#> removing the 'k' from magick effectively makes it a 'trick', a sham,
#> some sort of illusion.  'kteis' is the life of the process (that
#> pulsing vulva).  k is the eleventh letter, 11 being, according to
#> some the number of magick.  mystery is the heart of the path of
#> magick, development part of its charge and result.  taking away
#> cause, self is useless, its paltry replica of 'will' (motivation's
#> arising on the stage of i-consciousness) snuffed out, also an
#> unnecesary item.

Carl:
#you went from grammar, to biology, to math. i do not see an explanation.

to consider the cause of the self "erroneous" is to remove the veil from
the Majesty of being human.  it may be accurate in one sense, but it is
at least very lamentable in terms of aesthetics.  the *experience of
identifying with the cause* is an important one to humans.  this is what
leads us to decimate the planet's biosphere and strive to enter into a
television trance (trying to retain that experience through the horrible
nightmare of materialism).  better?


#> alternatively, remove the Prime Cause (that hidden Man Behind The
#> Curtain), and we are left with a continual-coarising, apparent
#> cause (the k of motivation, life), regardless of cessation in the
#> I (or indeed the i).
#
#pay no attention to the man behind the curtain ...
# 
#> subalternatively, regardless of all this cause and motivation
#> business, identify the self with the Self and the Magus yet
#> appears.  
#
#you lost me again. you posit three units here, one of them a 'Self',
#which I thought you denied.

self - the illusory composite of local existence
Self - the illusory composite of universal existence
Magus - the First Cause, simultaneously Above (Self) and Below (self)


#> I have claimed this for years, though countless
#> 'mages' have told me there was an absolute difference
#> between 'Microcosm' and 'Macrocosm'.  I always would responded:
#> 
#>         as above so below.
#>         essence is not different than form,
#>          form is not different than essence.
#>         the Top of the Tree and the Bottom are One (some like to
#>          add here "but after a different order" -- I find no need).
#
#in time these are all different. without time all numbers are one.

without time all numbers are zero.


#> #I would add that there is self-evident awareness.
#> dependent entirely upon this body, no?  remove the body, poof!
#
#we do not know 'poof'. it is a fiction. do you see?

that which we do not know is a fiction?  or is it merely conjecture?


#> #You must obviously be identifying with something. No?
#> so many things that it explodes into a fireworks show.
#
#you have some locus. 

of course.  the 'i', which I associate with this local body-consciousness.


#> #nothing. Substitute awareness for All, and there is nothing outside
#> #awareness.
#> 
#> relative, this awareness.  at least the All was apparently absolute. :>

and THAT is its value (which you exclaim) and its horror (which I decry)!
 
 
#> #> #I don't believe in god.
#> #> 'a god' or 'the God'?
#> #neither.
#> you said that my god was a rushing river through this place.  you must
#> believe in gods which I can make.
#
#you posited something 'outside' yourself. something larger, sentient or
#not. this is a god, no?

typically  I understand by 'god' something worthy of worship or something
which is worshipped despite pronouncements that this is a bad idea.


#> #you and i may both be right. where does that leave us? Aristotle?
#
#> no, Nagarjuna, as I said before.  see?: -A; +A; -A+A; -(-A+A):
#> categories of rational explication.  Ch'an nonexpression.  having
#> finally discovered that I was pointing at a bowl of water, you
#> at the lake, we stopped to look at Luna and smiled.  but at the
#> Twain we may meet also.
#
#yes, this is the same as our both finding the grapes. 
#and what is Luna in this example? can it be pointed to other than in a
#bowl or lake? 

reflection.  point to Luna.  another reflection.


#or is it the Self, which requires a reflective medium
#(water) in order to manifest itself to 'i'???

no Self, just reflection of the i.

 
#> #you do not see a need for an absolute referent.
#> 
#> oh I see a need for it!  right there at your keyboard!!!! :>
#
#moi? are i not relative?

perhaps this is why you need absoluteness.

 
#> #Now ... there is no proof of either One nor Many, at least I think we
#> #established that.
#> 
#> who did?  show me this establishment!!
#
#show who? show me your you!

:::exposing his genitalia:::

 
#> #So where are we? Are we not at the point that the only obvious item is
#> #our own awareness?
#> 
#> who's awareness?  fundamental awareness?  another God, I think.
#
#not who's. just awareness. or are we not sure we are aware?

agreed, there is awareness.  the 'who' is a fabrication.

 
#> by coming to be a body, by perceiving, by conceptualizing, by
#> reflecting on this conceptualization, we smashed the mirror.
#> you want to try to glue it all back together.  I am saying
#> that to do that you will have to cease being a body.  then
#> you'll not be able to be yourSelf for you won't be around.
#
#a string of show-me's, ending with a fiction (!)

absolutely true. :>

 
#> I
#
#I