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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.pagan,alt.religion.asatru,alt.magick
From: nagasiva 
Subject: Religions, Magic, Asatru, Jung, Neopaganism, WET Magicians (was LBRP ...)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 20:39:57 GMT

50010411 Vom

hereticheathen@aol.comNo-Spam (The Heretic Heathen):
> ...but if he is going to try to use the teutonic collective 
> it would be far better to use something more suited to it. 
> I mean changing the names from hebrew and using the names 
> from the norse world tree (which has nine worlds instead of 
> 10) and using another symbol instead of a pentagram [which 
> wasn't quite as terribly important to the teutonic people]
> would make it something other than a LBRP.

what are the nine Norse World Tree 'worlds'? are they structured
into a 2-D circles-and-lines format as is the Lurianic Tree
of Life (ToL) favoured by many Western Esoteric Tradition (WET) 
magicians? if so, can you render it in ASCII?

Jonathon:
>> You've been reading Jung haven't you?

many WET magicians (Hermetics) enjoy Jung's 'archetype' ideas,
believing that they are true, and proceeding to construct their
rituals (and sometimes spells) with this in mind. I don't think
they actually include much Jung in the rites themselves. ;>

however, the Solar-Phallic man made a big splash with Crowleyites,
and some Neopagans seem ardently wedded to the truth of gods-as-
archetypes proving the reality of the collective unconscious and
universalist deity-equivalences.

what has Jung written about magic per se? or about magick? 

>And you've been reading Silver Ravenwolf haven't you?

something wrong with Silver Ravenwolf? I've yet to hear a clear
and critical analysis of this author's works, though I gather
that some would compare hir to Lynn Andrews or Scott Cunningham.

>> Then you would know that the names of the Deities used represent
>> Archytypical energies, not specific entities (unless of course 
>> you are so inclined to believe in them). 

I thought the energies were presumed real and therefore these gods
acquired a kind of life of their own based upon the intensity and
reverence of believers. it seems to presuppose an semi-conscious 
field within which magical or religious beings like gods or spirits(?)
may arise and have a limited existence (dependent upon worshippers'
attention -- a supposition I've heard from quite a few of my kin). 

would you say, then, that Radha doesn't exist outside the mind, 
but The Cosmic Wife does? Venus doesn't, but The Mother Goddess does?
is this somewhat like stereotypes, or can we identify universal
themes and characters in human religious iconography and scripture?

> So if he believes in  them as mentioned than your statement has 
> no value.

on the contrary, it contrasts a different paradigm which every
student of magic would benefit from at least considering. it sets
out a challenge regarding the existence of non-physical phenomena
and allows alternative opinions while clearly claiming their bias.

>> Therefore, it's not the specific deity which truly matters, 
>> substitutions can be made, (rather easily mind you),

because the gods don't mind, being figments of one's thoughts,
dreams, and imaginings? if I speak with Thor and Indra, will
they say the same things? in different languages? will their
character resemble that which was around when they were first
described, or will modern attributions which may have been laid
over or accreted to their description be part of an archetype?

> Oh yeah, Yhwh, Mars, Odin, its all the same thing right?

to some this is certainly true. one might ask rather practically
if there is value in this kind of religion or magic. religious 
magicians sometimes consider their deity predictable and 
subject to their call (if not their messengers or associates). 
extending beyond this to what I would call the atheistic or
strictly areligious magician, one might well find that they
use all the gods as from a manual to achieve some objective,
as from a formula. 

in fact there are compendiums of associated symbolism, such
as Crowley's "777" (deriving from Alan Bennett), Regardie's
expositions in "The Golden Dawn". numerous occultists have
effectively replicated or used heavily as source such texts
as Agrippa's "Three Books of Occult Philosophy" or Barrett's
less complete restatement in "The Magus". grimoires and other
books on magic will often contain symbolic equivalencies,
though truly *global* syncretism seems difficult to find
outside the popular collections (such as that by Barricade
Books and their 'Complete Books of' series -- I have "The
Complete Book of Devils and Demons" by Leonard R.N. Ashley
and it is very lovely, though not strictly academic).

> Universalism makes it all the same muckity muck. 

or it makes the world a fitting background from which to
draw one's power in the performance of rituals or spells.

> While I am an advocate of chaos magick 

thanks for clearly identifying your biases.

> I find that systems evolve and grow and they can grow into a lot
> of neat things unless they are tampered with from other groups 
> (such as the christianized spells from northern european areas) 

why are those "tampered with"? if someone wanted to use them as
they did, why isn't that a clever usage of multi-culturalism?

> at some point they tend to be topped off and should be abandoned, 

how do you think people come to know when this point has been 
reached?

> but the whole of the symbolism is because it had years to 
> grow up and become something from a group that was more
> than an individual.

groups are becoming less identifiably exclusive. it is like the
genetic pool. it is becoming more diverse, complex, less 'pure'
in some primeval or aboriginal sense.

> But then I like Jung, Folkishness, and I hate most things 
> judeo-christian.

well you're playing right into the hands of *some* Christians
if you take Jung's Folkishness racial purity and anti-
semitism ideas to be valuable also. I understand that modern
reflections of Jung appear to omit these elements, as well as
presuming the accuracy of the Solar-Phallic Man incident.
  
> ...I am all for reading and studying and looking for things
> that work, but the hermetic systems with all their 
> classifications have become some giant monstrousities that 
> have more to do with reading books and memorizing than they 
> do with magick, or even something fun.


if you were speaking to a Crowleyan, then they might respond
that magicK has precisely to do with reading books and getting
to know the basics before doing anything serious. Hermeticians
are mystics, by and large, and their prevalent presupposition
is that the secret keys to changing yourself and the universe
may be found through the mechanism of ritual magic and the
construction (at least, if not the acceptance) of a system of
symbolic association. my understanding is that it is believed
the complexity adds to the POWER of the rite and the magic.
 
>> it's the energy put forth and the excertion of the will that 
>> allows the ritual to work.

put it over the top? or could you just exert some will,
without moving, and call that magic? will we be talking
about making 'Magic Pancakes' because you exerted your
will (true?) while making them?

> It depends, most people who take an active belief in the gods 
> being real think they do much but that the gods do stuff also. 

agreed.

> The universe tends to change itself to what you believe. 

you really think so? I don't. I think that only the appearances
change, and we are so ignorant that we can project whatever we
want to see upon what we're ignoring so as to justify doing
precisely what we want to do as an individual or group (which-
ever maintain the knowledge-base).

> (Thats why I tend not to believe in silly things like 
> punishment after life and karma and three fold laws)

these are cosmological descriptions supporting ethical and
moral restraints on magical work. do you have any restraints?
are they based on something more practical or self-serving?

blessed beast!

nagasiva
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