THE ARCANE ARCHIVE
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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.pagan.magick,alt.paranormal.spells.hexes.magic,alt.witchcraft,alt.magick.chaos
From: nagasiva  describes the OSOGD's prosperity-spell:
#>>>>> Clarification: we sold and are selling nothing.

Re O'Stat:
#>>> Just yourselves.

"Fr. A.o.C." :
# Really? How much did we get paid for ourselves?

the currency of attention is measured in seconds, not ounces.

#> THE GD had for a goal to help members become "more than human"
#
# As if that goal and practical magic were mutually exclusive.

inasmuch as the mundane is seen as a realm in which human
activity is mired and subjected to entrapment, as compared 
to the lofty aims of transcending this realm, then they are 
indeed mutually exclusive.

# Arguably the Arum Solis in it's original form was every 
# bit as concerned with theurgy and magical illumination, 
# solidly based in the WMT, as any incarnation of the 
# Golden Dawn. 

this much is clear.

# But they also devoted a great part of their Enochian 
# system, "De Rebus Enochianis", to the working of 
# practical magic.

according to a good number of mystics, mysticism has
quite distinctly practical ends, and thus the magic
one uses to attempt mystical aims is, by extension,
and with suitable goals demonstrating virtuous
motivation, also quite practical. :>

that said, there is usually some kind of twisted
metaphysics attached to all this mysticism whereby
you can't have mundane influence as a byproduct of
mysticism if you're intending to use it for what
are called "egotistic ends", or if it doesn't in
some way mesh with mystical goals. this is part of
what's behind Crowley's assertion that magic that
doesn't somehow seek the Knowledge and Conversation
of the Holy Guardian Angel isn't "white magick" but
is instead "black magic".
 
#> Sam's Linuxed GD has for a goal making trinkets.
#
# Well, Re, if you call that "making trinkets", then 
# scrying in the spirit vision is "scrunching up your 
# eyes real tight and pretending to see things."
#
# But hey, I come from a background in Chaos Magic 
# myself, which has no prejudice against obtaining 
# results in noumenal reality.

this much is obvious. having a similar background to
you (perhaps more divorced from societal involvement),
I have often railed against the perspective against
which you are here arguing, and so come to understand
some of its nuances left unaddressed by Re O'Stat and
others who might frequent alt.magick that are convinced
that "trinkets" are somehow an inferior magical supply,
as compared to "magical weapons".

apparently quoting Phil Hine:
#" This is anathema to the more 'mystical' amongst 
#" magicians, particularly the Christian and pseudo-
#" Christian types, whose main demand of magic seems 
#" to be that it never does anything concrete at all. 

not that it never *does* anything concrete, but that
its results serve spiritual (usually anti-material)
ends or that which gives rise to materiality (as in
'miraculous' acts performed by religious authorities,
often described as transnatural).

the important part is that it doesn't compete with
the religion which seeks to condemn as 'sorcery' and
'the marketing of trinkets' that which does not in
some way seek to be conducive to mysticism of a quite
transcendentalist type. the heavy condemnation is for
some reason important based on presumed metaphysics.

#" Instead it seems sufficient to shut their eyes, 
#" breathe a little differently than normal, and 
#" then imagine a series of castles and caves until 
#" convinced some entity or another has contacted them. 

wonderful. in part this obtains because those who 
are presumed to have magical power are supposed to
have already passed through this world and gone (or
become spiritualized and available and accessible
to all through transcendentalist means). if one 
were to exhibit the marks of the Magus (as by the
transubstantiation, or resurrection), then it would 
be in competition with the already-accepted Master 
whose works of theurgy have demonstrated the virtue 
and truth of the cult's creed. in churches that do
not hold the truth of the Passed Master, or who are
convinced of the divine's individual relation to the
worshipper, blatant actions involving thaumaturgy 
can and will be possible (e.g. prayer-warfare).
 
#" This entity usually assures them that they are on 
#" the right path (which of course proves the entity
#" is genuine) and then imparts some gem of wisdom 
#" that has them setting up orders and working groups, 
#" until apotheosis arrives in the form of a publishing 
#" contract.

what is called by Thelemites "the method of religion".

# Seems the only time the old Order's members lowered 
# themselves to results magic 

a complete misinterpretation of the supposed events.
it wasn't results which were supposed absent, but the
particular results of a certain type or which proceeded 
from a specific type of motivation (as of greed, egotism, 
and other "low", self-absorbed, selfish interests). the
important bits have to do with being compassionate and
altruistic, nonviolent, and, generally, moral. because
those who for some reason are now excused in their
misbehaviours failed in their mysticism, this does not,
in the minds of many of their cult followers, mean that
their magic was a sham. ask them to explain it.

# is when they were pissed off at each other, like Mathers
# and his magic rattling cans of peas. There's some "more 
# than human" for ya!

no, this is the exhibition of the DOWNFALL of Mathers and
Company, in that they turned to Black Magic in order to
achieve sociopolitical results and therefore cast their
own ascended status into question (or at least should have).

please rest assured, I don't hold with these ideas (since
I think the Low is identical to the High in many senses),
but you're not giving them a fair shot at critiquing you.
it is important that they be able to, so that we can see
the abject fallacious and dogmatic mentality from which
their criticisms tend to spring (one which does not 
demonstrate one's virtue and exalted status with ease,
and tends toward the irrational and illogical as much 
as do the claims of many a Chaos Mayj ;>).


# There are also important aspects to practical magic 
# that directly enhance one's ability to work with 
# high magic. 

why distinguish between them at all?

# The unfortunate tendency of so many GD groups to 
# regard "sorcery" as beneath them are missing 
# something important and useful. 

what do they typically mean by "sorcery"? isn't that
just a condemnation-label like 'magic' and 'satanism'
and 'black magic' that gets used as a bludgeon to
demolish religiomagical competition?

# Obtaining results in the 'outside world' has a 
# profound psychological effect on the practitioner, 
# particularly the lesser experienced ones. It confronts 
# the discursive mind head-on with the realization that 
# MAGIC IS REAL in a way that intellectual argument, 
# inner "pathworking" and "religious faith" cannot. 
# This makes success with all other forms of magical 
# practice all the less difficult to obtain.

the argument to the contrary is that certain *types*
of magic (e.g. necromancy) or particular *objectives*
as magical aims are somehow dangerous or ensnaring.
they have the capacity to shape or mould the magician
toward corrupting ends, becoming a distraction for
what is typically the focus of the mystic: ascetics.

# Practical magic also forces one to confront one's 
# own ethics and motivations on a personal level. 
# An Adept must have a moral compass, and the old 
# normalizing influence of Church and State that was 
# effective in the 19th century of the classical GD 
# has vanished in the 21st. In our time, standing on 
# the shifting sands of morality, having some practical
# experience with one's personal ethics is of immense 
# value to one who would be an Adept.

the mean, grubby sorcerer, after physical aims like
money, love, luck, revenge, etc., need not confront
anything more meaningful than the obstacles to hir
acquisition and control. having nothing to claim as
regards personal superiority except by virtue of
sheer magical might, she is the Sorcerer Supreme,
and all those who pretend to oppose hir are frauds.

# Bringing about changes in one's Sphere of Sensation 
# through the sheer application of Will also brings 
# about changes in oneself. 

the manipulation of the imagination to affect sensation
is one of the early lessons of magical work. its more
sorcerous (as I mean it) applications may be seen in
the spinning of children attempting to fall down from
induced disorientation and dizziness in a disturbance
of the inner ear.

# There is no better demonstration of the dictum, 
# "as above, so below."

there is a far far better demonstration of the dictum
to which you refer -- the coincidence and coalescence
of the manifest reality in harmony with the expressed
desires of the magician. seen from interior, work on
one aspect of oneself may have a parallel effect on
the world to which it runs as symbolic parallel. this
is probably one efficient use of body-diagrams with
respect to universal knowledge-systems (e.g. Adam Kadmon).

# Another is the recognition that we always must 
# exist in the real world.

I don't follow the logic of this.

# There is no dichotomy between "profane" and "divine"; 
# ALL is divine. 

where all becomes divine, divine becomes meaningless, 
a veritable "ocean" in which dwells a fishy mage.

# The unfortunate tendency to accept the illusion that 
# one is separate from the outside world and the "High 
# Magician" is somehow "above" it -- that he or she 
# (and by extension, their Order) is divine and the rest
# of the world is profane -- has led to all kinds of 
# problems that manifest FAR TOO OFTEN (*ahem*) in so 
# many Golden Dawn groups today.

this is the essential authority-squabble incited by a
fair number of theurges the world over. fastening
themselves to some experiential set as authoritative
with respect to the Cosmic God, the magician thereafter
sets in motion a kind of futile dance in resonance to
hir ego, those opposing it becoming the Face of Evil.

#" Successful sorcery requires that we pay attention 
#" to the world as it is, rather than how we would 
#" like it to be. 

when the world as it is includes a Creation, some kind
of Cosmic God What Made It All, and a Great Big Plan
to Which You Are Supposed to Conform, then the World 
As It Is (tm) quickly comes into dispute. this remark,
apparently by Hine, does not dissolve the issues.

#" One of the great pitfalls in magical development 
#" is the tendency for people to, when the going gets
#" tough, withdraw themselves into a safe fantasy 
#" world and count themselves kings of infinite space. 

how do YOU suggest that this be avoided? what measures
are there that magicians can rely on, unalterably, to
determine magical success, mystical or non? where the
objective is premised upon the discovery of the Great
Cosmic God, adhere to the Plan He Made, etc., is it
any real surprise when this is all discovered and set
up as The Good Way to Work Magic (all others being
black)?
 
#" Sorcery, which is concerned with the everyday world, 
#" can help us keep our feet on the ground, 

how can it do this while allowing us to soar?

#" which is very important for those who would reach 
#" for the stars.
#                                     -- Phil Hine.

unless and until that "reaching for the stars" begins
to include worship of a distant star-god who wants us
to eschew the terran pleasures and work contrary to
ordinary human living (which should remain suspect!).

# So sure, our Order encourages the working of 
# practical magic. It makes for better, more 
# capable Adepts. If anyone wants to denigrate 
# the value of it, well *shrug*... it's their loss.

it seems that you are bucking a rather longstanding
tradition of anti-materialism and Christian/Neoplatonic
transcendentalism. by these lights, you've varied even
FURTHER from the original intentions of those who are
associated with these techniques (GD).


and more:

Fr.AoC:
#>> There are also important aspects to practical magic that 
#>> directly enhance one's ability to work with high magic. 
#>> The unfortunate tendency of so many GD groups to regard 
#>> "sorcery" as beneath them are missing something important 
#>> and useful.
 
KD:
#> There is a process of learning. People arrive at different 
#> stages and go through different stages of 'belief' and 
#> insight (hopefully).

"Fr. A.o.C." 
# The tendency I described is not unheard of, and it's 
# the attitude that Re seems to be expressing. The 
# creation of talismans for a practical purpose using 
# the magickal formulae of the Z.2 was denigrated as 
# "making trinkets". 

having been described as nothing more than this, what
is the complaint with the assessment, precisely? in
comparison with a presumed objective of mysticism,
how did your prosperity ritual serve this end? if 
it did not, is it so surprising that those who are
convinced of the imperative aims of mysticism as a
proper application of magic will criticize you now?
 
# Personally, I see no dichotomy between "practical" 
# and "illumination" magick. 

you seem to be the one making that distinction, though
I gather you're reflecting the lexicons of others here.

# Practical magick is illuminating, and illumination 
# has very practical results.

usually the former is that which is disputed. can you
point out why the acquisition of material goods or the
securing of aesthetic pleasures or romantic trysts is
NECESSARILY conducive to spiritual insight and some
kind of profound mystical result? typically results
of this type are only *controversially*-related to the
activities of mysticism (as in neo-tantra, or those
cults which equate material success with some kind of
spiritual success, often because the God is presumed
to be in control of the material world).

#> One of the stages is the differentiation between 
#> "high" and "low" magick.  In fact, there are quite 
#> a few levels of insight involving just that split.
#
# And where one draws the line, or if one draws a line 
# at all.

as long as it is part of the conventional ideology in
tune with the traditional doctrines (as with the GD
and their Hermetic transcendentalism), then why not
identify the clear line typically maintained here?

#>> Obtaining results in the 'outside world' has a 
#>> profound psychological effect on the practitioner, 
#>> particularly the lesser experienced ones. It confronts 
#>> the discursive mind head-on with the realization that 
#>> MAGIC IS REAL in a way that intellectual argument, 
#>> inner "pathworking" and "religious faith" cannot. This 
#>> makes success with all other forms of magical practice 
#>> all the less difficult to obtain.
#> 
#> Or easier to convince oneself of? ; )
#
# There's a difference?

there being no distinction between intellectual
certitude and ontological state, of course not! ;>

convincing oneself of a truth is not the same as 
magically bringing about its actuality, however.
 
#>> Practical magic also forces one to confront one's own 
#>> ethics and motivations on a personal level. An Adept 
#>> must have a moral compass, and the old normalizing 
#>> influence of Church and State that was effective in
#>> the 19th century of the classical GD has vanished in 
#>> the 21st. In our time, standing on the shifting sands 
#>> of morality, having some practical experience with 
#>> one's personal ethics is of immense value to one who
#>> would be an Adept.
#> 
#> The concept of ethics also changes.
#
# I agree -- it's part of the process of Adeptship. 
# If one has discovered one's True Will, then a system 
# of ethics that encompasses that Will must evolve. 

having tossed out the metaphysical foundations for the
practice of mystical magic, turned toward material ends,
where will the discarding end? why bother with any sort
of ethics at all? what makes magic so special that it,
more than say, engineering, necessarily involves any
kind of ethical or moral shift at all? why doesn't this
necessarily lead to the abandonment of *all* ethics,
and the dissolution into insensitive ascetic harshness?

	"I'm sorry, but if you don't have the will 
	 to withstand the assault of that magician, 
	 then your True Will must be to become that 
	 individual's slave. As we have learned in 
	 our Order, Might Makes Right, and this is 
	 as true for magicians of our peculiar 
	 terran-mystical bent as it is for those 
	 who fabricated ethical systems by which 
	 to steer their wayward explorations in 
         the past."

sound at all familiar?

# It may or may not have any relationship with the 
# cultural or sociological bias of mundane or 
# traditional morality.

typically the traditional morality has been seen as the
dictum of some kind of cosmic Mystery or Godhead. with
the abandonment of that authority and metaphysic, isn't
it deceptive to claim that more than the mechanism for
the achievement of your ends (magic) is what remains,
rather than any other kind of thematic or methodical
continuity of system? 

(this appears to be one of Re O'Stat's criticisms)

#>> Bringing about changes in one's Sphere of Sensation through 
#>> the sheer application of Will also brings about changes in 
#>> oneself. There is no better demonstration of the dictum, 
#>> "as above, so below."
#>>
#>> Another is the recognition that we always must exist in 
#>> the real world. There is no dichotomy between "profane" 
#>> and "divine"; ALL is divine. The unfortunate tendency to 
#>> accept the illusion that one is separate from the 
#>> outside world and the "High Magician" is somehow "above" 
#>> it -- that he or she (and by extension, their Order) is 
#>> divine 

typically this step to "the Order is divine" is not made.
the Order serves the divine, and gains access to the
peculiar and apparently awesome power of the God which
is served and worshipped. where this is done in some
kind of hollow replica of the past, it is presumed that
the same activities will encourage personal omnipotence.

#>> and the rst of the world is profane -- has led to 
#>> all kinds of problems that manifest FAR TOO OFTEN 
#>> (*ahem*) in so many Golden Dawn groups today.
#> 
#> This concept changes too.
#
# Well, it's supposed to, anyway.

temple-orientation seems to be the beginning of this
kind of hubris. isn't that the origin of the term 
"profane" (outside the temple)? without all this
templarism and worship of things, perhaps there
wouldn't be anything that is profane, but selected
pockets of 'divineness' which may be apprehended,
on par with mana-concentrations.
 
# Actually, if you take a look at Carroll's more 
# recent stuff, it's 'mystically' inclined, in 
# that it explores the fringes of theoretical
# physics and it's similarity with high magick.
#
# See: http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/specularium/

dunno, Carroll fairly obviously has a mystical aim
with "magical consciousness" and "illumination"
featuring prominently on the first textual page of
his first book ("Liber Null and Psychonaut", p. 9).

# In my experience, Chaos Magicians (the capable 
# ones anyway) eventually become drawn to some 
# form of illumination magick or another. Tantra 
# is fairly common, especially Tibetan disciplines, 
# and Chinese Alchemy (Qi Gong).

that makes some sense. these imaginative traditions
include less hysterical fear surrounding dualistic 
elements and results to the rites. their methods 
might be apprehended for other purposes (extracted) 
by those who have little regard for the dogma 
typically attached to the disciplines instructed. 

# It's why, after more than ten years of Chaos 
# Magick work, I'm in a Golden Dawn order.

this is, apparently, continuing to be debated here. :>

#> ...Both write well of pitfalls.
#
# It's a natural extension of a solid grounding in 
# practical magick.

here I'd disagree slightly. "pitfalls" in particular
seem the predominant focus of those magicians with
some kind of "path" and "progress" (often mystical)
which the "aspirant" is supposed to walk or make.

the 'pitfall' is some kind of distraction (as are
powers described by mystics the world over, usually as 
some kind of testing byproduct of successful ascetics 
(i.e.  the obsession with the use of and/or obtaining 
of the powers leads away from at least what the magician 
is said to seek, usually away from what the speaker
thinks is valuable to obtain using the methods -- some
kind of transcendental state where the manipulation of
reality that the mysticism makes possible is useless or
completely valueless given the insight also gained).
 
#>> So sure, our Order encourages the working of 
#>> practical magic. It makes for better, more 
#>> capable Adepts. If anyone wants to denigrate 
#>> the value of it, well *shrug*... it's their loss.
#> 
#> As if there could be an adept without it...

if 'adept' merely means someone proficient in magic,
then no mystical "advance" need be associated, in
which case any kind of capitalization of "Adepts"
as implying something transcendental or 
authoritative is vacuous and empty of meaning.

by the paradigm against which you seem to be
arguing here, "Adepts" provide only the proof of
their corruption and complete ensnarement when
they purport to instruct the methods of gaining
riches or knowledge through magical practice and
make no mention of spiritual disciplines or some
kind of devotional assignment to the divine.

# We're in agreement on this. The person I was 
# responding to apparently is not.

and I am uncaring who agrees on what. you can
agree all you like with whoever you like, but
this in no way supports your argument except
upon appeal to popular opinion. Re O'Stat does
not argue this much better, but insufficiently
enough that I am here lending him my keyboard. ;>


"Fr. A.o.C." :
#>> Personally, I see no dichotomy between "practical" and
#>> "illumination" magick.
#
# ... 
#
# So why don't you expound on why you imagine you do, Re? 

the discernment is imprecise and yet significant enough
to defend quite easily. the practical is that which has
lucrative or discernable physical advantages, results,
or subjective effects yielding a more pleasant experience,
or at least one desired by the magician calling up the
circumstances they'd prefer. 

the illuminating, by contrast, seeks merely a perceptual 
or intellectual insight into the workings of the cosmos, 
typically in line with some kind of Cosmic Creator God 
or hierarchical cosmological system. presumably this will
have a bearing on all activities of the successful "Adept"
and, by the instruction of mystics the world over, lead
to a theurgical role, abstaining from egotistic thaumaturgy.

# I see no one else leaping to defend your opinion, but 
# rather the opposite. 

by dearth of support a position is valueless? 

# Afraid to step into the ring and show how everyone else is
# wrong and you're right?

hmm, I'm not. here you go.

	Re O'Stat is right because he's defending the
	traditional moral stance of the Golden Dawn
	and the vast majority of ceremonial magicians
	in the Western Esoteric Tradition by making a
	clear distinction between spiritual and
	materialistic aims and methods.

	everyone else (?) is wrong because generating
	prosperity serves no spiritual purpose other
	than to complicate subjective life with
	additional commercial choices, addressing no
	internal maturation or reconfiguration, and
	instead substituting sorcery for mysticism.

how'd I do? ;>

nagasiva