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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.pagan.magick,talk.religion.misc
From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nigris (333))
Subject: Magick: Judeochristian, Recipes, Fundies
Date: 3 May 1997 02:58:33 -0700

[technical difficulties enforced delay -- apologies for outdatedness]

49970417 AA1  Hail Satan!

E6

nigris re the kinds of Hermetic rites I prefer:
#> ...usually less light-based, less dualistic, less fear-based.

Judy Watson from private conv. taken public per her permission:
#with some things it is that. with some things, my learning style is such 
#that i have to back into things. with the lbrp, he says the archangel 
#names and i want to scream. 

I know the feeling.  this doesn't sound the same as you described, but I
have an innate resistance to Judeochristian things, the utilization
of Hebrew and archangels and such, in magical pursuits.  it isn't that
I am anti-Jewish or something, but that alot of traditional Hermetica 
and Christian mysticism strikes me as unbalanced, anti-nature, and 
in general very destructive of many things I hold dear.

the LBRP in particular I find quite repulsive, since it ostensibly 'sends 
away' beings whom I feel we have no call to order about, does so in an 
egotistical or Deistic manner, and for the purposes of protecting a 
potentially continued and corruptive weakness.  


#he did one the other night for tegan because she'd had horrible nightmares, 
#...i had to control the reaction. as i hear it more and more, the reaction 
#will fade. i guess. 

as you become more and more lulled into somnambulism by the evil effects
of their corrupted magick (!) you will eventually accept Jehovah and his
army of astral dominators and learn to like it?  (oo)  I'm being rather
intentionally extreme above, yet I think it is important to consider the
possibility that the dualism of some Judeochristian cosmological frame-
works may make nightmares, the conflict of conscious and unconscious 
realms, and a distinct anti-terran attitude more common (especially as
it continues to operate under Zorastrian or Manichaean influences).


#some of my reaction might just be to the fact that people use a prescribed 
#form for ritual. why is that better than something i do off the cuff? (and, 
#mostly, no one says that it is - especially around here at blake....)

pre-fab rite has always given me the willies.  I tend to like more shamanic,
less predesignated pursuits.  much like art, I find that the FEELING is
often more real to me when someone is originating their rite from within,
rather than attempting to infuse a common construct they have adopted.

of course I have experienced exceptions to this, especially within my Order
and the greater Thelemic and Wiccan communities.  at times the recipes were
exuberantly and expertly given a life which allowed me to see their value
as emotive batteries.  I was not always certain what underlying evils they
might be inspiring, however. :>

this is always the danger of group rite and recipe-orientation.  the first
pits us at odds with the twisted spices of a number of others, potentially
reinforcing psychological elements and cosmological schema which we have
been actively working to oppose in ourselves as it may be pervasive within
the society in which we live.  the recipe-orientation can have a cumulative 
effect, reinforcing whatever horrible curses may be contained therein.
 

[re Blake]
#there is a very supportive atmosphere for people to do and learn and 
#teach about whatever works for them.)  someone, a person, an actual 
#human, wrote these rituals... why are they so standard? ('cos they work, 
#i know)....

that is the usual response.  I think it not very well-thought out.  the
question I'd ask in response is 'work toward what ends?'  if the rites
have all the desired effects you desire, more power to you.  I have
found that many rituals considered 'standards' may reinforce some 
particularly nasty and persistent problems with which even the 
surrounding culture is grappling (things like rigid gender roles, 
standards of human beauty vs health and the enjoyment of life, limited
attitudes sexuality, metaphysics and methods of resolution of 
conflict, etc.).


#i also have a very different feel for doing "kata" rituals - daily 
#"practice" of ritual to keep you in good form, whether this is a 
#banishing or whatever. i don't get it - to me, this would feel like 
#a dulling, not a sharpening. whereas, daily meditation, tai chi, 
#yoga, wood chopping, walking, ummm... there are tons more... daily 
#something-like-that feels like it would keep the necessary parts of 
#me close to the surface. 

this is a VERY important issue within the culture of routinized 
(condemned? :>) magicians.  yes, there does appear to be some measure
of support for the 'daily rite' method, though my own feelings are
quite similar to your own here.  I find that rituals are diluted and
dulled if I repeat/perpetuate them.  they function for me as very
important Transition-Workings, infused with power based on all the
preparatory 'work' I've done in what the elite would call 'mundane'
activities (inclusive of 'useless' conversations like this one).


[re magick/qbl fundamentalism]
#> #...i do find it tiresome that, once again, people are treating this
#> #stuff like it's the only way to the answers, the one true faith kinda
#> #thing.
 
#> ...the question is: does the material
#> that they are studying *inspire* that kind of approach?  or is it
#> perhaps their own hangup, or is it the methods of absorption itself
#> (i.e. out of books, from "teachers", associated with "spirituality",
#> etc.).  all good subjects for T93-L, I think.

#i think it's just that people get so excited about what works for them. 
#it's like food. if there's something you think is delicious, it's very 
#difficult to stop trying to get people to try it and admit that they 
#like it. "but it's so good! just *try*..."  it's good hearted. people 
#just want to share their cookies. (ok, that's the feel for from people 
#i know. i also have seen online that there is a different feel-ed 
#motivation for the behavior). 

surely for some this is the case.  the real "fundies" I'm talking about,
though, are those who don't understand that there are many roads to a
similar place as they appear to be headed.  I ran into this just
recently in conversation with a security guard who works at the same
company I do.  he had previously asked if I was studying Qabalah (he
didn't spell it at the time :>) and so recently we discussed this in
some greater depth.

he claimed that the tarot is only meditative tool to understand the
Qabalah and was quite absolute in his certainty.  he didn't just mean
it *could be used for this as well as other things*, but that this was
ALL it was good for, that people who used it for other things were
lost and wasting their time and/or doing themselves serious harm by
experimentation or "divination".

when I asked him what Qabalah meant to him he began to ask me questions
about a variety of Qabalistic terms and "what they meant", with the
clear presumption evident that there was some specific response I
could give in the short time allotted by which he could confirm 'where
I was at'.  I got this most clearly when, after explaining that I was
only a beginning student of Qabalistic materials and found concepts
such as Ain/Ain Soph/Ain Soph Aur and Kether rather difficult to
'define' for him, he began to suggest that I look into some group 
like BOTA "if you really want to make some progress".

I go on at length here because he wasn't the first person I've come
across with this type of attitude.  others have had the same, limited,
fundamentalist attitude toward everything from Wicca and Thelema to
Tarot and the Proper Way to Do Candle Magick.  often it came with
some sort of moralism and elitism attached to it -- if you don't do
it the Proper Way then Bad Things will happen; those who practice the
rituals of the Chosen in Wrong Ways were deluded or charlatans; if
you don't do it Arightly then it will be ineffectual, so why bother?; etc.

this is why I asked about where this comes from.  it is an OBVIOUS
element in religious instructions, and there is a certainly some degree
of overlap between the occult and religious cultures, yet it can also
be found among the political just as easily, or among those of ANY
TECHNICAL FIELD.  it is possible that there are particular instructional
styles or learning environments which encourage this type of ignorance.

it is to our benefit to understand which these are and keep them from
becoming the methods by which we learn, or, perhaps more importantly
if we do, offer instruction.

E6/6/6
 3 3 3
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