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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.islam.sufism,alt.sufi,alt.magick,talk.religion.misc,alt.paranormal.spells.hexes.magic From: "Slp"Subject: Re: Islam, Sufism, Magic and More! Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 19:28:18 -0500 As for being simplistic, I agree. I was using permission in a rather loose sense. Let's look at the first instance, attempting to control an entity without permission. Usually this starts, in the spells that I have seen written from various ages, with the summoner commanding, and not asking, an entity to appear or do something for him/her (usually the entity is a god/goddess from a religion different than the summoners). He attempts to control the entity through willpower, or magical instruments/designs, and/or by trying to impress it by speaking a number of attributes that the summoner has (or supposedly has) that are supposed to indicate to the summoner that he has the power or authority to do so (again, a possibly dubious proposition. If the summoner actually has the authority and/or power, the entity, if it actually exists, will be able to perceive that). Note that in these instances there is no asking permission of the entity (or anyone else usually) either directly or by asking nicely to do something. The entity is not allowed(supposedly) to have any say. Usually in these cases, the entity is not happy to be there, and if anything goes wrong, will usually attempt to wreak havoc on the practitioner. Assuming, for the sake of argument, that such entities exist. This kind of thing is usually practiced by people dabbling in the darker side of magic, or by ignorant practitioners, or those whose ego outstrips their common sense. The kind of magic where permission is used, in terms of spells, either is an invocation whereby the practitioner asks the entity to appear and/or do something, and offers various pleasant, to the entity, gifts/sacrifices to appease any anger, or to help it, or to pay for its services, depending upon the relationship with the entity. Oftentimes, but not always, the entity in this case is part of the practitioners religion. They ask, and it is up to the entity to decide. The kind of magic that utilizes forces of nature that are not recognizable by current scientific thought or method technically isn't magic, but is rather a technology. With forces of nature however, one does need to be aware of whether or not one is plugging into a 120 volt outlet or a 240 volt outlet, so to speak. The "permissions" in this kind of thing, if we can speak of things like that, basically apply to whether or not one has the permission to do this kinds of things, i.e., from a higher authority, whether god/goddess/nature and tends to be rather tacit and dependent upon more upon individual circumstances. For an extreme example, if one attempts to use magic to move a mountain, and the mountain has not given its permission for you to move it, and decides that it won't, it won't move. And if the mountain gives you permission to move it, but Nature has not given its permission for you to move it, it may not move either. If the mountain and the rest of the universe (and/or god/goddess, depending upon your religious/spiritual beliefs) give you permission to move it, then it may move, depending upon how you do it and what your source of power is. If you are just using personal power, I suspect it won't move even with all of the permissions. If one has permission to use forces or power or entities that are stronger than oneself and of suffiencient magnitude to move the mountain, then the mountain will move. Does this help explain my position on it a little better? Americans and some other cultures tend to be rather poor at seeking permission and observing boundaries, which is one reason why I phrase it this way. Scott "Blue Rajah" wrote in message news:SQcq7.1839$N_4.436650@news.uswest.net... > > "Slp" wrote in message > news:PN6q7.648$GX6.408213@news.uswest.net... > > There are basically two kinds of magic. One where one attempts > > to control or command or force various entities and powers without > > permission, and one where one does things by permission. > > This is extremely simplistic. And wrong. > >
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