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Criteria Demonstrating Magic

To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.pagan.magick,alt.magick,alt.paranormal.spells.hexes.magic,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
From: nagasiva 
Subject: Criteria Demonstrating Magic (was Skepticism ...)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 20:01:47 GMT

50020619 AA7

can a demonstration of MAGIC take place in which are obtained
consistently repeatable RESULTS? 

what will be the nature of these results? the criteria would depend 
upon the terms 'magic' and 'results' and their intended meanings.

choreographing the demonstration is the first step in defining 
the terms in question, which is why this challenge was immediately
raised in response to a claim resembling the one above in recent
discussions in usenet.

fictions about the limitations of scientific enterprises in ability 
to explain a phenomenon are never supported with evidence. the
issue pertains to knowledge sets outside the predominantly believed.
this is supported in the well-regarded writings of philosophers of
science (widely-read in the skeptical community) such as Kuhn. bubbles
of knowledge may or may not intersect, but their referents will
inevitably overlap, causing social diffraction and alternatives to
arise to account for them (e.g. Newtonian and Einsteinian physics).

to say "this is scientifically inexplicable" is to maintain that
the listener or some other party ('the scientists') would find it
difficult or impossible to account for the data under consideration,
at its best use. this sort of thing is portrayed in horror stories
(e.g. Lovecraftian) all the time, and is one of the reasons why the
enthusiasts of ceremonial magic and role-playing intersected (see 
Black Moon Archives photocopies of Lovecraftian ceremonialism; or 
the writings of authors like Bertiaux, Grant, and many others; 
as well as expression of Chaos Magicians and Satanists).

if you're talking about "current scientific understanding", then it
probably means some academic conglomerate or investigatory institute.
there is no reason to presume something extraordinary until presented
evidence to support it. social spectrums of knowledge are buffers
against scallywags and rogue instructors. they are a kind of mean by
which it may be safe to steer (each of us varying as is our wont, 
from these). without a further elaboration on the understanding you
have implied, it is difficult to know your meaning.

Jack Dominey :
>...if you are claiming to do something "scientifically inexplicable",
>then you're pretty much asserting that nobody in the scientific realm
>understands why or how the result comes out.  

literally that they cannot account for it in their models. given
science-fiction-based imaginations and those which extend some depth
into microscopic and even macroscopic realms, why would the scientific
realm somehow be stymied into silence on the matter?

this is better seen as a challenge to those who are interested in 
demonstrations of magic to begin performing them for observation 
by the interested. one might consider Houdini and his interest in 
Spiritualism and seances as a comparable circumstance, where skeptics 
are concerned. its areas of focus (intentional change, repeatedly 
successful results) are very important to those interested in 
politics and games of chance, and should be easily funded where
convincingly presented. presentations following this post may be
archived for future discussion on demonstration criteria desired.
 
> It would be as though you could change the boiling point of pure 
> water at standard temp. and pressure via a ritual. 

some believe in this movie-magic, sure, especially as it becomes
exaggerated by virtue of ascribed effect and learning curve.

n
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a     e        e
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a d    !
@yronwode.com

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