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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick
From: Dagon Productions 
Subject: Re: Poke, Houdini, OSOGD (Was: Re: Tom insults again (Was "busted
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 06:32:47 GMT

Old Coyote wrote:

>DngulSkarmaTathagatgarbha  wrote in message news:<40C62C89.8060704@cox.net>...
>  
>
>>Old Coyote wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>e_nihilist@yahoo.com (Nihilist) wrote in message news:<8d9826c7.0406070755.26ed6829@posting.google.com>...
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>catherine yronwode  wrote in message news:<40C425D5.D641ADAF@luckymojo.com>...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>Is he still obsessing about me? I don't read his posts anymore. What
>>>>>little i see now -- quoted by other posters --- has lost any semblance
>>>>>of intellectual pretension. 
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>Well, i don't think about Tom too much these days -- kill-filtering
>>>>>nuisance posters is quite liberating in that regard -- so if he is
>>>>>libeling me, i guess he will have to go on doing so in a vacuum. I just
>>>>>shake my head. 
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>I fail to understand how someone can continually announce that they've
>>>>ignored someone else, taking great pains to make it as convincing as
>>>>possible.
>>>>
>>>>I see it all the time online.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>I wish i had a bit more on-topic magical stuff to post, and i apologize
>>>>>for not doing so lately. I have been working hard at writing and that
>>>>>leaves me little time for ... writing. Here's one thing that may
>>>>>interest you, however -- 
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>Hey, this is what made me butt in. In the thread "Golden Dawn Orders,"
>>>>I asked what a Golden Dawn adept can do that the average Joe can't do.
>>>>I've been interested in this Joseph Maxx character ever since he
>>>>offered me the incisive answer that a Golden Dawn magician can do
>>>>Golden Dawn magick better than I can.
>>>>
>>>>Granted, alt.magick isn't exactly a podium from which to issue
>>>>challenges. I'm thinking about setting up a website with my research
>>>>notes or something. The website would be a great learning experience
>>>>for me and a good resource for the serious magician.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>Siva and i recently attended a pair of initiations at the OSOGD in
>>>>>Richmond, California (0=0 Neophyte and 4=7 Philosophus grades), and i
>>>>>was greatly impressed by the intelligence behind the order's reworking
>>>>>of the old HOGD grades. 
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>I don't see any intelligence at all behind the Golden Dawn. They seem
>>>>incapable of answering the simplest of critical enquiries. They seem
>>>>incapable of backing up their dogma and incredible claims. The Golden
>>>>Dawn is no better than AMORC.
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>Why would you expect anything different?
>>>
>>>For that matter, how different do you think either one is from
>>>say, the Anglican church I infrequently attended while growing up?
>>>
>>>A guy in robes, says a few words, some incense, blah blah blah...
>>>
>>>Get the picture? We're talking forest, not trees. Everyone knows
>>>different forests have different trees. Everyone also (usually) knows 
>>>when they're in one (a forest, not a tree).
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>I do, however, see a lot of creativity, in a stagecraft sense. In a
>>>>Golden Dawn church, prop selection, costuming, and set design are
>>>>really something special.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>Very inspirational ritual work, really, by Sam
>>>>>Webster and a crew of others, including our friend Joseph Maxx 555. I
>>>>>was impressed by the dedication of the members to the melding of Thelema
>>>>>and Golden Dawn paradigms, with a Chaos Magick flavour. 
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>If that Chaos Magick flavor is anything like Peter Carroll's (thread:
>>>>"Magick and Causation"), I don't think those paradigms are clever at
>>>>all. I mean, you may as well just circle jerk with a copy of
>>>>*The Dancing Wu Li Masters*.
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>Peter Carroll is Chaos Magick, 
>>>

Well, you are wrong here... he is the first to give it a name but not 
the best
man to put forth the concept... Phil Hine, Stephen Mace, Nick Hall and
others have done a much better job of it... esp. Phil Hine.

>>>and I will save you the time, it
>>>is a pale, thinly disguised ripoff of Crowley's work. Liber Null and
>>>Psychonaut. I've read them both, and I've read nearly everything Crowley
>>>wrote, so I must be right. Actually when I read Carroll's books I recognised
>>>every single watered down whitewashed concept as being lifted from Crowley,
>>>& should anyone be willing to compensate me for the effort I would be willing
>>>to document such.
>>> 
>>>      
>>>
>>correlation iz not causation
>>    
>>
>
>What, are you suggesting he came up with all of Crowley's ideas on
>his own? Possible, but I would only believe it if I believed he
>never read Crowley's books before writing his own, which is a vanishingly
>tiny likelyhood.
>
>F.Y.I. Anton Levay also boosted heavily from Crowley for his book,
>"The Satanic Bible"
>

Actually more from Ragner Redbeard and Ayn Rand more so than Crowley.

>
>Neither of those guys added anything new to the mix, so far as I can
>tell. If you can point out some unique contribution, please do.
>  
>

Both LaVey and Carroll condensed others work into a viable workable 
system or philosophy,
though apparently this is frowned upon here. I know Carroll has admitted 
he took others work
and condensed it, sifting the wheat from the chaff, in his honest 
opinion of course.  I found
Liber MMM and Liber KKK to be very useful in my initial experiments with 
magick and
Stephen Maces mix of KHGA and Spares automatic writing I also found
very useful as well.  

-Douglas

-- 
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