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To: Christian Magick Elist From: tyagi mordred nagasivaSubject: Eclectic Synthesis and Syncretism Date: Kali Yuga 49941208 Quoting: |anonymous |> |>Christianity would seem to be easily compatible with Chaos Magick. | |I disagree, and most emphatically with the word 'easily.' A Chaos |Magician would take Christianity as a paradigm of belief, equivalent to |all other paradigms of belief, as one might try on new clothing to see |how it filled. A Chaos Magician might do all kinds of things. "Nothing is true. Everything is permitted." These are the maxims of the popular style. |Are you empowered to confer initiation in each and every tradition? If you speak of social recognition and integration, then assuredly not. If you speak of personal integrity and the initiation of a particular approach in the paths with which I associate, then I feel that I am indeed capable of initiating anyone within them, and have done so, though my methods are not usually ceremonially-based. ------------------ another anonymous quotation |> |> I'm afraid I'm just a boring old traditionalist who believes in the |> initiatory value of one system and its own related adjuncts. Isis |> forgive me for saying this, but syncretism of this ilk aggravates me |> as well. I want to say that just because I support the notion of an eclectic syncretism (which some associate, I think, rather deprecatingly with 'schizophrenia') this does not mean that I see no value in the sects of organized traditions. In fact I think that they can be very important crucibles not only for personal transformation in terms of the knowledge and wisdom benefitted by members, but also in terms of a social catalyst within which one may aspire. I only caution that social groups are liable to corruption just as are individuals and that those which encourage the domination of the group over that of the individual are doubly dangerous. |> I agree that it is pointless to claim that you subscribe to all |> religions, and I know a lot of people who make exactly that claim. Without actually doing so and/or demonstrating some theoretic as a basis for this claim, it is indeed pointless. |> However, I do know other spiritual schizos like myself, people who draw |> from two faiths rather than one; Christianity and Buddhism is a |> particularly popular combination, and there is a lot of good literature |> on the blending of those two particular traditions. The issue would appear to center around whether or not 'drawing from' a number of faiths (as in your example) is the same as 'adhering to' them sufficiently to identify as a member of them. I prefer to leave this evaluation to the individual who makes the claim. Attempting to regulate it has got me nowhere quickly aside from feeling that I am disrespectful. |I made an exaggerated statement merely to make a strong point in relation |to a particular concoction being put forward as a working possibility ie |the 'Christian, Chaos, Mage'. I'd like to say here that I can imagine very many possibilities in relation to the combination of Chaos Magick and Christianity wherein it would be exceedingly easy to combine these. Of course it would require that the individual so involved was able to release some measure of hold on their belief structure. Please note that one's Christianity need not be founded upon belief at all, and when it is not, then it is quite easy to accomodate Chaos Magick when described as utilizing belief as a tool. |However please also note that I refer to the initiatory power of one |tradition and its OWN RELATED ADJUNCTS.... The relevant terms being used here which I think inspire some controversy are 'initiation' and 'tradition'. I was asked recently with what tradition (or multitude) I'm associated, and I think the definition of 'tradition' has some bearing on my response. If one means by 'tradition' a social organization then you might call me a 'Thelemite', since I am formally associated with Ordo Templi Orientis at this time, though I have been also been initiated (empowered) by a Tibetan Buddhist into the 'current' of Yeshe Tsogyal (a simple ceremony involving many others). I have been formally 'initiated' into a variety of paths, but none of these constituting involvement in social organizations. I'm *affiliated* with several organized religious groups, including the Christian, Muslim, Buddhist and Satanic, some merely online and none formally. The word 'initiation' is a term hiding a very complex set of concepts, since it may mean one thing to a social group and quite another to a Priest or Priestess of a magical or religious path. Sometimes these are associated and sometimes they are not. That is, some claim that the social rituals confer or begin a relationship with the divine or a principle that is the focus of the group, some claim that they may or may not do this depending upon the individual in question, and some claim that the social is merely a reflection of the personal process which we may undergo if we are dedicated/graced. When one begins to speak of 'initiatory power within a tradition', then again this is a tricky confluence of terms. If Naomi means to imply a socially-recognized ability to confer group membership and any psycho- spiritual energies or commencements attendant to that conference, then when the question is put to me whether I have such power I must reply in the absolute negative (nor am I ever likely to have such power with the possible exception of within my own tradition of tantric monasticism). If, however, she includes a personally-realized ability to inspire a comprehension and dedication to the principles and practices which I know to be the essence of the social traditions, then in many cases (most if not all of which I mentioned), then I'd say I suspect the answer is yes, though I have only had this tested in a minor fashion and mostly as a counselor among friends (such a relation as I prefer) rather than as a Priest or Hierophant. |There are lots of other blends that work remarkably well and can enrich |each other, especially at a philosophical level. I think that it takes a great deal of imagination, creativity, and sympathy to fabricate a synthesis among various religious and magical systems. I agree that particular social segments of all are simply not compatible with other paths (notably those which are dogmatic and/or closed-minded). These last, into which I cannot enter into membership, I attempt to learn from since I have many brothers and sisters who dwell there. The philosophical level (in its most basic, process-orientation) of any religious or magical path is where the Middle Path is given birth, where the commonalities of all mystical systems begin to flower. Only due to the development of fixed knowledge-systems and practical codes do the beautiful edifices which constitute social traditions become incompatible with their parallel organisms. The way I like to see it, most of these systems are constructed as spokes of a very large wheel and once in a while a confluence occurs in which two of the spokes generate a third which remains separate from its parents. However, at the center of this wheel is a marvellous temple (a tower, rising 90' perpendicular to the various spokes). Here all of these systems have their root, at God's Gate, the central Nexus, the Crossroads of Religion, the Centerpoint of Magick, the Summum Bonum, wherein dwells True Wisdom and Perfect Happiness. |However magical work is different to philosophy. And through our magical |training we know that it is possible to work directly with the |minds/being/presences (however you wish to express this) behind/within |each tradition. It is evident to me that we are using our language in a very different manner from one another, since my experience of magical tradition is that it is not much different from its 'religious' counterpart in that initiates are often told not to 'mix the streams' ("Wiccans don't do Ceremonial Magick; Aleister Crowley was a Satanist." "Thelemites are a different breed of magician from the Neopagan ecstatics; those neoshamanic groups are merely preparatory for the real work of the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel, the Transit of the Great Abyss, and the Great Work to follow."). Your usage of 'philosophy' is obviously much different than my more process- oriented preference (see Needleman's _Heart of Philosophy_) also, since I would consider diligent philosophical endeavors to be a necessary element of any magical curriculum, whether in the linguistic or other forms. |...It has been my experience that while we quest, we do mix and match both |philosophy, teaching and probably through magic to some extent. This is in |fact a vital stage,though I do see it as a stage (often a very long one). Then it is obvious that you and I have quite different practice, since my own focusses upon a central working, unifying through eclectic synthesis the various religious and magical systems, using love and will, into a syncretic whole. This has been in many ways the work of those whom I consider to be the greatest of mages in history, and I consider it not only to be a personal but social working of some importance to me and to the fate of our biosphere and plane(t), Gaea; truly a work of compassion. |Now my point really, is that you cannot be initiated into several, |traditions, because initiation represents a serious commitment and a |willingness to probe deeply for years to come under the supervision and |guidance from probably both inner and outer teachers from the same |stream. It is thus at this point that a choice is required. I tend to agree and do not feel that any choice is required at all, though it is often made. It is much like dedicating oneself to keeping the temple clean, which will involve countless lessons including how to use and care for the tools, what dangers may present themselves to me during the period of my stewardship, how different seasons affect the mood and method of upkeep, and most importantly how to keep asking who it is that maintains the temple. The various cultural and intellectual approaches to the religious and magical Way do not present themselves to me as anything more than variations on a theme, each with their own very valuable lessons and problems. Certainly to be comprehended they require a serious commitment of time and energy. Certainly I shall be guided by inner and outer teachers as I come to know the particular spoke. Yet always, always, relevant systems of this sort appear to focus upon one or two items (depending on how one sees each of these): myself, and the divine. I have yet to come upon a religious or magical system which did not provide a particular approach to the study of and/or relationship between them as its central purpose. "Mage, know thyself." "To thine own self be true." "To me! To me!" "As above, so below." |The effect of [exposing students to mixed liturgy drawing on world myth] |is that students naturally and organically refine and indeed define their |own path [where they spiritually resonate]. I'm not sure that this differs between religious and magical students and/or teachers, and it seems to me that one persistent problem is that organizations tend, over time especially, to encourage conformity rather more often than initiative and genius. |...the work enables us to experience one current through its |many faces as experienced and named by many different civilisations. This is precisely the Current of the Tower of Babel of which I spoke above. It has many expressions as a concentration of experience. tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (Nocifer)
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