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To: alt.magick.tyagi
From: tyagI@houseofkaos.Abyss.coM (Hsi Wang Mu)
Subject: Chaos Magick and Chayoats
Date: 49941118

Quoting: |wednsday@MCS.COM (Wednesday) 

|...where things go static (for example, these mad wars of my-order-
|is-better-than-your-order; what does that accomplish?

It demonstrates that neither of the participants in the discussion are
capable of effective conflict resolution. ;>


|... in realizing this, I know I don't feel better, I feel -worse- for 
|letting myself get drawn into it, even if it's only to go "Geeeez. Go away."

Sometimes feeling worse is required in order to resolve issues.  Sometimes
issues are best left unresolved (at least on the short term).


|>|My objection to the current wave of anonymous postings is that it seems 
|>|mainly like an excuse for someone to pick fights but not be willing to 
|>|fight them hirself, and I don't see why voicing this is out of line. 
|>
|>Perhaps there is fear involved.

|Does that make voicing the former out of line, or is that a possible
|reason for the anonymous posting?

I'd say both, but my original intent was in regards the anonymous posting.


|>|I do have problems with some timid soul dropping bombs and then not 
|>|being willing to pick up the pieces.
|>
|>I associate that with Chaos, personally.

|I associate it with irresponsibility, which != Chaos. Chayoat, maybe.

The dictionary and the general public would associate the two rather
directly, I think.  Look at the popular media and their analysis of the
doings of 'terrorists cause mayhem and chaos'.  Same thing.


|>...Short-term, ignorant action is the
|>very foundation of most of the problems which many Chaotes disdain.

Yet they don't see that they are repeating it due to their ignorance.
This leads me to call most of them 'Chayoats'.  It is like the new wave of
freshman who think that they have all the problems 'solved' when in
actuality they have not even begun to grapple with the problems at all.


|...I ...see a lot of talking and talking
|...within saidsame community about benefit of this and problem of that and 
|consequences of the other -- what we have here are clashes of the extremes 
|as opposed to riding the big wave.

Talking does not = communication, and communication is apparently one of 
the least studied subjects in the Chaos community, which is composed largely 
of disgruntled individuals who are tired of 'all these organized rules which
stops us from doing what we want to do'.  They of course do not understand
that the features of organizations are attempting to address the very
problems which causes them to move from organization to organization,
disdaining the people instead of their own inability to resolve the issues.

I still say that 'Chaos Org' is a contradiction in terms, though the way
that the conventional Chaos Magick community carries on it is more because
it applies naive solutions and therefore only leads to petty squabbles.  
The problem isn't the people (aside from their ignorance) it is the 
resistance to the study of history, psychology, and social dynamics, let
alone themselves and their behaviors.


|>|Maybe it's just me, but Mu, you seem to find yourself in a lot of
|>|personality clashes and I'm not sure what they have to do with the 
|>|matters being discussed so much as an incompatible (which doesn't mean
|>|invalid) system of communication.

Any coherent system of communication will work fine.  What you are pointing
out about me is more a result of my approach (often antagonistic and hit-
and-run or guerilla-terminology-warfare) than approaches to dissent within
alt.magick.chaos (which I generally leave to the noise-makers t/here).


|...a lot of people *don't* follow the REF, as you may have noticed. 

Alot of Chaotes don't like to follow guidelines or rules and then get upset
when the results which those guidelines were installed to prevent continually
recur.  What can be expected but that they will thereafter get upset and
leave, never understanding that their own lack of attention to detail and
study leads to their situation over and over and over again.


|There -is- useless discussion. There -is- petty bickering.

Useless to you, perhaps.  Somebody needs it.  Same with the bickering.


|There is also a resistance to that changing, whether those of us in
|the middle (I'll admit to often being there; I have too much spare time
|where -I- don't work!) notice/admit it or not.

Anybody who doesn't use a killfile gets what they deserve. ;>


|I'm certainly not questioning this. I wish I -did- have a better alternative.

Why?


|In the midst of the IOT matter I have tried my approach to banishment by
|laughter; it doesn't seem to do shit. 

Consider what that approach is meant to accomplish.  Consider what not
having a killfile does to your communications.  Sure, you won't miss
anything, but as long as you are perturbed by this 'useless communication'
and 'petty bickering', then you get a faceful, deservingly.

Laughter isn't the mechanism of having people do what you want them to do.
It is the mechanism by which we can sever our attachments to the objects
at which we direct it.  That at which we can laugh is that about which we
can become less concerned.  If not, then at least we may inspire within
ourselves an appreciation of the ignorance of our attachment in the Grand
Scheme of things.


|I've tried suggesting moving to alt.magick.order, which I newgrouped for 
|that. Denied! 

I thought your suggestion was out of place.  The IOT is nominally Chaoist
and any discussion concerning it belongs in alt.magick.chaos.  The silly
attempt to create a newsgroup which does not have organization associated
with it is doomed, because humans naturally form groups and these use the
mnemes in popularity as identification, effectively dissolving any chaotic
association the terms may have had.


|I don't want to sit still and let it continue forever while I idle in 
|killfiled bilss though.

Yes, you want to control it.  Do do do, control control control.  These
are the major problems with the Chayoatist paradigm.


|What good will that do anyone? 

If you are in killfile bliss then it will do you immense good.
By purposively restricting yourself from tools which would assist you in
your work, you are only hamstringing yourself, nobody else (until you
thereafter complain, making more noise).


|What if ignoring it proves detrimental in ways I haven't anticipated?

I haven't noticed any problems.  Talk to people who take that path and
see if they find anything detrimental about it.


|>|One may let live and yet prod awake....
|>Oh?  When does 'prod awake' become 'not let live'?  

|I don't have a pat answer for this one, unfortunately. I try to hearken to
|the extreme of a light shake on the shoulder. It's clearly more when your
|shaking damages the inner ear. There's got to be a reasonable middle;
|I have yet to find it, but that doesn't mean it's not there.

What is this 'reasonable middle' garbage?  'Let live' is not ambiguous.
You are only proving out my contention that Chaotes are overly concerned
with rattling cages and 'proving themselves superior by "waking people up"'.
Join the Jehovah's Witnesses.  They try to wake people up too.  They certainly
couldn't be said to 'live and let live'.  That isn't their job.  Yet they
don't try to pretend (or represent themselves) otherwise.


|>|>|: Absolutely not.  Chayoats ruffle the feathers, stir up the pot, make
|>|>|: lots of noise, play political games, and call the pot blacker than they.
|>|Any group of people will have those within who behave in such a manner.
|>Then those are the Chayoats within that group.

|So Chayoats transcend the Chaos folk?
|Are there Chayoats in OTO? TOT? The Republican Party?

Sure, but they are called different things.  'Chayoat' describes that type
of person who identifies as 'Chaote'.


|Again I found myself confusing Chaote with Chayaot.

Not surprising.  There aren't many who differ that I've seen.


|>|Seems sie only really comes in contact with the Chayoat-Roaster.
|>False, as I offer alternatives.
|But does sie come into contact with them?

If she allows such, then yes.  Hir shell may be way thick for all I know.


|>|It's an understandable conundrum. On the one hand, a group of people
|>|who can network and share resources is a really cool concept. On the
|>|other hand, what happens when the focus shifts from the goal to the group??
|>
|>THERE's where I say is the *work* within organizations -> what happens
|>among and between people.  All this 'information-transferral' is very
|>lovely, but until it is APPLIED (in life, among people, in daily life)
|>then no real 'work' is done at all.  The rest is just ceremony, entertain-
|>ment and flim-flam.  All this talk about 'getting things done' should be
|>tossed into the 'getting entertained' bucket.

|Some of the talk does in fact result in things getting done. 

You missed my point.  Interpersonal relations are the work of an org.
The rest is communication.  Data regarding individual process (which 
appears to be the Chaote focus) is communicated through books and
the org is not necessary.  Data or feelings regarding interpersonal
dynamics (which appears to be the masonic counter-pole) is communicated
directly (especially the feelings) and only applied within politics.

'Getting things done' can include a fuckload more than the data-exchange
suckled by Chayoats.  If they saw it this way then perhaps they could 
keep some sort of useful organization together and learn something (though 
it would not, in my eyes, be 'chaotic', since it would be 
structured/organized).


|For example,
|repeated "we need a better way of circulating the commonly used rituals
|here so that people aren't always having to ask" discussions have resulted
|in things like the Vortex rite being placed on my web page. I wouldn't have
|known this was needed if it had never been discussed.

That's great administration amongst a batch of individuals (which is, I
think, the perfect pattern(lessness) of Chaotes).  It says nothing about
communication of anything beyond what I've mentioned above.

Mu the Terrible
tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com