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To: alt.magick,alt.magick.order,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.thelema,alt.pagan.magick
From: Re O'Stat 
Subject: Re: The Open Source Order of the Golden Dawn (LONG response to 333)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 01:30:49 GMT

In article <3E2DC59A.740295A6@slip.net>, "Fr. A.o.C."  
wrote:

> Re O'Stat wrote:
> 
> > Which leads, of course, to an obvious question: why is it so important
> > that these people, who have so changed the core of the GD to identify
> > themselves as GD?
> > 
> > Do they think that they wouldn't get any members if they didn't link
> > themselves to a famous name? Do they have so little faith in themselves?
> > 
> > Or do they simply have some psychological need to stay linked to mommy
> > and daddy no matter how different they are? Is it some sort of Oedipus
> > thing where they want to destroy daddy (by superceding) and then mating
> > with mommy (by taking the name)?
> > 
> > Sometimes it is very hard to be willing to observe ones own motivations.
> 
> Even harder to analyze someone else's, especially from a prejudicial 
> point-of-view.
> 
> The possibility that Re doesn't want to admit is that perhaps we are
> sincerely and honestly convinced of what we are doing, and we earnestly
> believe our reasons to take the name Golden Dawn are sound.


On the contrary. I have no reason to doubt that you are sincere. 
But as "Secret Chief" pointed out concerning the A.S., 

"I don't deny that Denning and Phillips departed from the Golden Dawn
material in some substantial and interesting ways.  So did Crowley and
P.F. Case.

"In that sense, Aurum Solis is no more phoney than the A.'.A.'. or
BOTA."

And then, Gnome added:

"They had some original ideas and made some decent contributions. 
Maybe the U.S. A.S. can rename itself and rise again? Let us hope so."

That makes perfect sense to me.
If you depart from the path of a group, rename yourself and rise again.
Why not be superior to what went before?
You've already changed so much; take a new name to represent it!
Stand on your own!



> 
> In Re's eyes that may make us seriously mistaken. Fair enough. But what
> bothers me about Re's various pronouncements on the issue us that he
> tries so hard to ascribe foul and nefarious motivations to our adoption
> of the name Golden Dawn. If he was simply saying that we're incorrect,
> that would be fine, for he's entitled to his opinion. But he goes beyond
> that. He ascribes underhanded motives to what we're doing, and I must
> object to this characterization.



And you have every right to do that.
However, this isn't about me; it's about your group.
I have no doubt you think you should call yourself the G.D.
I think that, if anything, you should be thankful for my posts as it has 
allowed you and others in your group to rationalize your action.

But the fact is, you have changed from the original G.D. workings.

Why don't you celebrate that! Why don't you proudly announce it?

IMNSHO, it was a typical Piscean age tradition to claim "We aren't good 

enough! We need an ancient background. We need secret chiefs. We need to 
have a history that goes back 5,000 years."

Wake up to the Aquarian age. What YOU have to say is far more important 
than any claim to history. A tradition is nice, but if you're going to 
change it, why call it the tradition?

Frankly, I seen nothing "nefarious" so much as being locked into a 
Piscean mentality on this naming.

Of perhaps it's just marketing? How many people would join up with the 
"Occult Sam's Club" as opposed to the "Golden Dawn?"
:-)

Tradition? Secret Chiefs? A long lineage?
Bah!
Let success be your proof.



> 
> This is all sadly annoying to me, in that it puts words in our mouths --
> or in this case, thoughts in our brains. On these forums we have tried
> our best to clarify our intentions and motivations, and detail the
> process by which we arrived at our conclusions -- including the
> conclusion that we are, in spirit and in fact, a satrap of the Golden Dawn.
> 


You're the Golden Dawn if it was filtered through Crowley.
You're the Golden Dawn if Osiris is not on the Thrown of the East.
You're the Golden Dawn if the focus is on Thelema and not the G.D.

Unfortunately, that's still not the G.D.

It would not be annoying to you at all if you didn't feel there was some 
truth in what I have posted.


> We only say this is what we wish to do, based on our best understanding
> of the Way. We don't ask anyone else to follow our way, or change
> theirs, or even agree with our interpretation of what "Golden Dawn"
> means. While we certainly believe we have made an improvement (otherwise
> what would be the point) what makes that a statement of insincerity? Why
> is Re so convinced that in our secret hearts we "know" he's "right", and
> therefore we are lying when we say otherwise?
> 



Because it annoys you.
If you didn't think what I have posted was accurate, why would it bother 
you at all?

If somebody says you never studied anything occult, you could blow it 
off. You know you have. But you're coming up with all sorts of defensive 
rationalizations to support your G.D. claim.

If you know you are right, it wouldn't bother you.




> I don't like being called a liar. And I will continue to challenge any
> statement Re makes to that effect, such as his insulting attempts at
> amateur armchair psychoanalysis.
> 
> - Fr. A.o.C.



Most psychanalysts sit in armchairs.

Re

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From: Re O'Stat 
Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.magick.order,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.thelema,alt.pagan.magick
Subject: Re: The Open Source Order of the Golden Dawn (LONG response to 333)
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In article <3E3239EE.75B9D903@slip.net>, "Fr. A.o.C."  
wrote:

> 333 wrote:
> 
> > 50030123 kaos kaos kuvin I have the grimoire!
> > 
> > "Fr. A.o.C." :
> > >The possibility that Re doesn't want to admit is that perhaps we
> > >are sincerely and honestly convinced of what we are doing, and
> > >we earnestly believe our reasons to take the name Golden Dawn
> > >are sound.
> > 
> > it does seem his suspicions and criticisms are rather persistent
> > in taking you to task for deception, rather than error, yes.
> 
> I'm sure this arises from his firm belief that his position is such an
> obvious truth (like asserting that the sky is blue) that to deny it one
> must either be lying or demented. He's backed away from the 'lying'
> somewhat in his last posting and is instead suggesting neurosis -- I
> thought the reference to Oedipus was particularly colorful.


Why, thank you!
:-)




> 
> But what he asserts is not nearly so simple and obvious as the color of
> the sky. Nothing is the esoteric arts ever is.
> 
> I really don't have any interest in "attacking" Re's motivations. I'm 
> willing to accept he's sincerely expressing his opinion, and I'm not 
> claiming his opinion is without merit. As you've pointed out, it all 
> finally comes down to where one draws the line regarding "core 
> principles", and he draws the line elsewhere.
> 
> I do appreciate that Re doesn't accuse us of being armchair 
> occultists, and grants that we actually do the Work, not just write 
> about it.

Nor do I have any reason to.
Nor do I have any reason to think that your system cannot be successful.





> 
> The only thing that troubles me is he can't grant the same to us, 
> and simply agree that we disagree. Instead he feels he has to 
> attack our motivations. 



Oh, I'm not attacking your motivations. I'm just wondering what they are.




> First it was that we were "dumbing down" 
> the system -- making it easier for lazy people. 



That's what the original posts about it seemed to indicate. However, I 
did NOT claim that your group was doing this. I was pointing out that 
this was a common phenomenon and that by doing this neo-mail order 
stuff, it "seemed" that is could have been that way.

Actually, I am glad that you are not and hope that you can train a lot 
of people in your system.



> When it became 
> clear that wasn't the case, then we were accused of glomming on 
> to the name to attract followers. When it became clear that we had 
> no reason to do so -- we weren't charging money or demanding 
> subservience or pushing a One True Way™ -- it's now become a 
> psychological problem. We're not deceiving others, we're
> deceiving ourselves!


On the contrary. You ARE deceiving others by calling your group the G.D.

I still think that your reason is either a marketing ploy (people get a 
lot of things other than funding with good marketing) or a Piscean age 
mind-set of needing to be linked to an earlier group.

> 
> > >...On these forums we have tried
> > >our best to clarify our intentions and motivations, and detail the
> > >process by which we arrived at our conclusions -- including the
> > >conclusion that we are, in spirit and in fact, a satrap of the
> > >Golden Dawn.



I'm sure you believe that, for whatever reason.

However, if the Church of Satan decided that because a bunch of their 
people use the LRP and GD correspondences that they should call 
themselves the Open Source Satanic Order of the Golden Dawn, by your 
logic, that would be okay.


> In fact, that's the idea of the greater Order beyond our mother lodge.
> Every Lodge as a satrapy, under the governance of their own satrap
> (Chief Adept) and councilors. A true federation, an orthopraxis rather
> than an orthodoxy -- unlike the idea of certain other bearers 
> of the GD banner.


A great idea! But why not call yourself something else? "Sam's Club?"
'-)

Then you could have an entire federation that moves the practices into 
the New Aeon of Horus which is what you seem to be doing.


> 
> What strikes me as odd is that we don't seem to be taken to task for
> what could be looked at as a more serious break with tradition -- being
> Open Source. This flies in the face of the whole idea of "Hermetic".
> We're the Blatant Order of the Golden Dawn. We say right up front that
> we don't have any privileged "esoteric transmissions" and that such
> things are totally unnecessary. "The Truth is Out There."


The information IS out there. That's why it's easy to say that you're 
switched GD correspondences to Thelemic ones.

There's nothing wrong with that. Go for it! Spread your banner far and 
wide.

It's still not the G.D.


Re (Paddy) O'Furniture