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Objectively Studying the GD

To: alt.magick,alt.magick.order,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.thelema,alt.pagan.magick
From: newzion@xtra.co.nz (Secretary ECT)
Subject: Re: Objectively Studying the GD
Date: 4 Mar 2003 06:29:20 -0800

"Fr. A.o.C."  wrote in message news:<3E6252E8.BB23CBD3@slip.net>...
> Satyr wrote:
> > 
> > newzion@xtra.co.nz (Secretary ECT) writes:
> > 
> > > Greetings Re and Frater AOC
> > >
> > > The crucial point of the Golden Dawn mystery is the resurrection.
> > 
> > Highly subjective, even if true. Moreover, the 'resurrection' occurs
> > in the RR+AC, and therefore by definition plays no part in the Golden
> > Dawn proper. Nothing past 4 = 7 appears in the Cypher Manuscript.
> > Without convincing evidence to the contrary, the emphasis placed on
> > death and resurrection represents foreign material grafted onto the
> > original system, in all probability by Mathers.
> 
> Thank you, Satyr, for making the same comment I was about to make.
> 
> With all respect to Frater Jean, the resurrection mythology of the
> RRetAC is really a fundamental deficiency in the 2nd Order system
> devised (as Satyr points out) by Mathers. It is the root of so many
> problems that have arisen (forgive he pun) over the years with nearly
> every GD order, including Mathers' own HOGD.
> 
> Not that being "reborn" is not a useful magical formula. In fact, the
> OSOGD uses the Osirian death-and-rebirth mythological cycle as the basis
> for the Portal Grade. But we identify Osiris with the Green Man, the god
> of vegetation (as did the ancient Egyptians), so his story is a
> microcosm of the birth-death-rebirth cycle of nature.
> 
> The old Order placed their 'resurrection' in the 5=6 Adeptus Minor
> Grade, which follows the Portal, and directly related it to the
> Christian mythology. As such it was not a *bridge* to the 5=6, but
> rather the *goal* of the 5=6 and in fact, the whole goal of their RRetAC
> system -- to identify the Aspirant with Jesus Christ.
> 
> Do I even need to lay out all the psychological problems that can arise
> from identifying a person, especially in the charged atmosphere of
> powerful magical rites, with the Christian Messiah? Especially if that
> person was raised as a Christian?
> 
> Think about it. One of the recurring problems with GD Orders is that
> their upper echelons become raging egotists. Mathers' attitude in this
> regard is legendary, as is Crowley's. Anyone attracted to ceremonial
> magick is already possessed of a fair share of hubris, or they wouldn't
> be able to make it work. Toss fifty-some-odd Adepts of that Order
> together and you've got fifty-some-odd Messiahs in the same room. How
> can there NOT be problems with this?
> 
> The only reason to induce this kind of identification on a member of the
> Order is if the Order is a reflection of the Christian religion, which
> Mathers' RRetAC certainly was. There is no mention of Christianity per
> se in the Ciphers; the word "Christ" appears only once, a reference to
> the 'caduceus' as a source of miraculous healing. The Ciphers clearly
> describe a Pagan magickal system, not a Christian one.
> 
> Our order identifies the 5=6 with Ra-Horus -- a "king", a Sovereign -- 
> but more importantly, with the sun -- a Star ("Every man and every woman
> is a Star.") This kind of magickal 'identity' is not nearly so
> problematic as fifty-some-odd Messiahs. A gathering of fifty-some-odd
> Stars is a constellation. Messiahs are mutually exclusive ("There can be
> only one!") Not so with Stars, of which there are untold billions.
>  
> > To my mind, any crucial element of the Golden Dawn is to be found in
> > the Hall of the Neophytes, as it is outlined in the Cypher Manuscript
> > itself. It is this ritual formula which constitutes the basis for all
> > that follows.
> 
> Again, I agree 100%. The 0=0 Hall of the Neophytes is the foundation
> upon which all of the Golden Dawn's magick is based. The same formula is
> used for all of their practical magick instruction, as described in the
> Z.2 documents.
> 
> - Fr. A.o.C.

Taking it right back to basics; at the 0=0 level the candidate is
disassembled. That is the candidate shares sympathetically the
disassembling of Ani during the neophyte ceremony. This is a magical
destruction/initiation of the candidate, which sympathetically and
mythically is too that of Osiris. This is why, the Golden Dawn places
Osiris in the East - after all as previously mentioned Osiris is a
recurrected god. During neophyte the candidate begins to receive the
influx of the Osiris/Christ current which is absolutely necessary for
the candidate to obtain upper Malkuth (in compelete embroyic form) by
the time he reaches Zelator. With respect to my friend Frater AoC, I
personally cannot see how it is possible to ascend the Tree [at least
past Yesod] without this inner-transmutative ingredient being set in
motion, right from the beginning.

LLL
Jean

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Secretary ECT wrote:

> Taking it right back to basics; at the 0=0 level the candidate is
> disassembled. That is the candidate shares sympathetically the
> disassembling of Ani during the neophyte ceremony. 

Here's where our symbolic journey of the Aspirant deviates from the
system Westcott devised, based on the Ani Papyrus ('Book of the Dead').
Ours is NOT based on the Ani Papyrus. There are a number of reasons for
this, based on 100 more years of Egyptology that was unavailable to the
old leaders of the Order in the 19th century, and our own insights based
on that knowledge.

We know now that Ani was a merchant-scribe (what we would call a
bookkeeper or accountant, most likely). The scenes depicted in his Book
of the Dead are NOT universal. Every "book of the dead" ("Per Em Heru")
was unique, prepared for a particular person. Ani was not an Adept or
Priest, he was a "normal" citizen -- wealthy for sure, but not an
Initiate. Subsequent finds of other depiction's are more applicable to
the journey of an Aspirant toward Adepthood. 

There are many other instances of the Weighing of the Heart extant but
Ani's, though being the first copy of the Per Em Heru discovered in
modern times, it is the most widely disseminated version.

However, when compared to other versions prepared for other classes of
people striking dissimilarities emerge. One easily available example is
on the cover of the second volume of Her-Bak (by Isha Schwallier de
Lubics, Inner Traditions International). The vignette is from the Temple
of Der-el-Medinet. From the image alone it is clear the deceased is a
priest (viz. garb and holding a feather indicating he is already
'justified'). Instead of Isis and Nephthys standing beside Osiris on the
Dais, they are down with the Deceased making gestures of Hailing. The
entire mood of the piece is different. Rather than an imperious 'look
who the cat dragged in' attitude towards the Deceased as in Ani, it is
as though Isis and Nephthys are saying "Hey Boss! Look who we found
outside!". Every one seems happy to see the Priest. Horus and Anubis are
holding the Heart and Feather in balance, Thoth is ticking him off His list.

I went to the Treasures of Egypt touring show last year, currently on
tour in the USA from the British Museum, when it appeared at the Museum
of Fine Arts in San Francisco. Along with the 'weighing of the heart'
(and the post-weighing scene of the afterlife) of Ani there was a
'weighing' scene from the Papyrus of Hor (a priest) where the heart was
being weighed against a little man-like figure, and Ma'at was standing
behind Hor with her hands raised in the sign of rejoicing. Again, the
priest held a Feather in both hands, indicating he was already
justified, and Anubis is holding the scales level with both hands. Thoth
is ticking him off his list, and Sobek the Crocodile-demon is not even
present! (The number from the museum collection was EA10479/6 and the
exhibit catalog number was 105.)

So based on this new evidence, we must conclude that:

1. Ani's book of the dead is NOT a universally applicable vignette.

2. Ani was NOT an Adept or Priest, so his symbolic journey has little to
do with the symbolism of the journey toward Adepthood, because...

3. Other papyri showing the Hall of Double Truth when applied to the
journey of a Priest or Adept are significantly different in their
symbolism. If we MUST use the Hall of Double Truth as a metaphor (and
our position is that this is NOT a 'must' -- see below), then we should
at least use one that applies to an Adept, rather than a merchant.

Furthermore, the question must be raised of whether or not to even apply
the Per Em Heru (Book of the Dead) to the 0=0 Hall. It's suspected that
the line in the Cipher's that refer to "Egyptian writing" on the Pillars
may even be a later edit by Westcott. (At least two versions of that
Cipher page exist, with conflicting words regarding these "Egyptian
writings".) There is no other mention of the Per Em Heru in the text of
the 0=0 manuscript, nor of any Egyptian godforms whatsoever. So the
originators of the GD system as described in the Ciphers did not apply
Ani to the 0=0; that was a later development of Westcott and Mathers,
most likely inspired by the parallels between it and the Christ
mythology that were expounded by E. Wallis Budge, who was their
contemporary. Today, Egyptologists have an opinion of Budge similar to
modern psychologists' opinion of Sigmund Freud -- as in, they don't
think very highly of his theories and interpretations, even though he
was an early pioneer in the field.

With due respect to Frater Jean and his Order, my point is not to say
that the Magical Formula devised by Westcott and Mathers (and used by
the ECT) is not workable and valuable. The point is that it is not
REQUIRED in the meta-context of the Golden Dawn system -- that other
Formulae drawn from Egyptian mythology are possible that can also yield
the desired result of elevating the Aspirant to Adepthood, and still
have no conflict with the GD system overall.

> This is a magical
> destruction/initiation of the candidate, which sympathetically and
> mythically is too that of Osiris. This is why, the Golden Dawn places
> Osiris in the East - after all as previously mentioned Osiris is a
> recurrected god. During neophyte the candidate begins to receive the
> influx of the Osiris/Christ current which is absolutely necessary for
> the candidate to obtain upper Malkuth (in compelete embroyic form) by
> the time he reaches Zelator. With respect to my friend Frater AoC, I
> personally cannot see how it is possible to ascend the Tree [at least
> past Yesod] without this inner-transmutative ingredient being set in
> motion, right from the beginning.

I'd like to offer a critique of this position (with advice from Frater
IO), as follows:

First off the idea that the Neophyte is a death and resurrection ritual
is not required, UNLESS one is basing an entire esoteric system on this
concept (as in Christianity) and one needs to "tie in"
death/ressurection overall. In fact, in the classic GD, that is the
place of the Portal and 5=6, so I must disagree with that premise in the
first place.

2nd, During the 0=0 the Neophyte is exposed to the Light In Extension
(L.V.X.), via the Hierophant/Lord of Initiation, and all of the
symbolism of the Hall relates to Light breaking forth in Darkness. There
are parallels here to the Eastern esoteric systems with the "opening of
the Third Eye Chakra". This is far more appropriate to the beginning of
the Aspirant's symbolic journey. Again, not slain and risen -- that
comes much later.

3rd, The slain and risen formula is common on the planet but not
universal. There are many other formulae. The point we have taken from
the Equinox of the Gods was to inform us of the shift from the slain and
risen to the crowned and conquering child for our system. Neither is
this symbolism universal, but it is the point of the New Aeon concept
expounded by Thelema and adopted by our Order.

4: So then, we must ask the question: what is this attachment to the
slain and risen/Christ formula? As Pagans, this looks to us like the
same old imperialism, if anyone insists there is ONLY ONE solution/path,
and all others are incorrect or even 'evil'. At the very least, this
indicates a lack of imagination and study. There are SO many ways of
approaching the task of initiation, in the same way that in Nature there
are so many ways of achieving the same end, She being omni-accommodative.

5: Death is only the beginning, being the end of what was. Our view of
Initiation is to view it as a BEGINNING, not an end in itself. The real
challenge is what comes after -- the reassembly of the aspirant into
something functional, who can do their Will in the real world. In the
Olde Aeon, the emphasis is on the death and the loss. We take that as
given -- we understand that in this process something dies, but our
focus is on that which arises and GOES FORTH BY DAY, thus our symbols
are the rising Sun and the Child; all possibility, all potential. But
that potential must be cultivated for it to fulfill its destiny, thus
the purpose of the Grade Initiations.

So, if not the Hall of Double Truth as the symbolic vignette of the 0=0
Hall, then what? 

Briefly, our 0=0 Hall is not based on the symbolism of the "Hall of
Double Truth", but rather on the Barque of Millions of Years, in which
Horus rides in the stern, with Ma'at at amidships, and Set in the bow
with his spear, slaying the Apis-demon that threatens to devour the
Barque. In this mythological cycle (from the 19th Dynasty), Set is
indeed the protector of the Barque (and our Hall), without whom the
demon of "Nothingness" would devour the Sun and the Night would be
eternal. 

So our 0=0 Hall is the Ship of the Sun, helmed by Ra-Hoor and crewed by
his fellow Deities, as they make their journey through the Night,
conquering the dangers and passing the Pylons of the Hours along the
way, until they break forth unto the Golden Dawn, the rising of the Sun
with coming of the New Day.

In an upcoming essay being written for the OSOGD on-line library, Fr. IO
puts it this way:

"Since [our] Hall of Initiation is not presided over by Osiris who's
proper place is in the Hall of Great Truth, that layer of the 0=0 rite
(that was added on to the basic form of the Ciphers) will need to
change. The most logical setting for the Son of Ra is at the helm of His
father's boat, as is traditional. Being a long-time sailor myself, this
is an especially fruitful image. The boat symbolizes the vehicle that
takes us on the river, the long journey through darkness into light. The
Hierophant is the captain of the boat, accompanied by His crew of fellow
gods. The passenger is the Sun, Ra-Hoor Himself, but also is the self of
the aspirant, aspiring to become a crewmember on the ship of Ra called
"The Barque of Millions of Years". Initiation is to repeat the
cosmogonic process with the Aspirant as the world being created and
simultaneously, the deity doing the creation. Similarly, it is the
process of being welcomed as a member of the crew, which is being
welcomed as a member of the Order, the company of those traveling
towards 'the light' (literally the 'golden dawn' of a new day.)

"One other advantage of this scheme is its ability to reintegrate Set
into the company of the gods after a bitter absence. By placing Horus in
the East we leave a vacancy in the West. With Ra-Hoor at the helm of the
Barque of Ra, we can remember the old 19th Dynasty telling of the story
that places Set at the prow (with His spear) to fend off the Serpent
Apep, who would devour the Barque and keep Ra from being reborn again at
the dawn. Set defeats this 'lurker on the threshold' permitting the Sun
to rise. As Hierus in the 0=0 hall, Set truly shows His power as the
Master of Darkness. This corrects the problem well understood by the
psychologically inclined of the 'return of the repressed'. That which is
split off and denied will rise again later in new form to wreak havoc.
By including Set, the Shadow is given a place to be projected. With Set
in the Hall, the Shadow has it place and is brought into the service of
the evolving soul." 

- Fr. A.o.C.


"If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to Man
as it is, infinite. For Man has closed himself up, till he sees all
things through narrow chinks of his cavern." --- William Blake

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Brett wrote:
> 
> Fr. A.o.C.  wrote in message
> news:3E65169A.9B1EA7ED@slip.net...
> >
> > I went to the Treasures of Egypt touring show last year, currently on
> > tour in the USA from the British Museum, when it appeared at the Museum
> > of Fine Arts in San Francisco. Along with the 'weighing of the heart'
> > (and the post-weighing scene of the afterlife) of Ani there was a
> > 'weighing' scene from the Papyrus of Hor (a priest) where the heart was
> > being weighed against a little man-like figure, and Ma'at was standing
> > behind Hor with her hands raised in the sign of rejoicing. Again, the
> > priest held a Feather in both hands, indicating he was already
> > justified, and Anubis is holding the scales level with both hands. Thoth
> > is ticking him off his list, and Sobek the Crocodile-demon is not even
> > present! (The number from the museum collection was EA10479/6 and the
> > exhibit catalog number was 105.)
> >
> 
> Dang!  I went to see the exhibit last friday.  Wish I'd known enough to take
> that close of a look at the various pages they showed and make the
> comparisons.  So overwhelmed with all the stuff that I didn't look that
> closely at any one thing.

In the room where it was displayed in San Francisco, the Ani took up one
wall (it having the most intact pages), and on the wall to the left
(while facing it), was the Hor papyrus. There were also quite a few
steles depicting Horus as Ra-Hoor nearby.

> Now I may have to go back, if only to look at this.  They're here for
> another week and a half.

It's worth two trips for sure. I found the steles and papyri that were
at various stages of completion to be fascinating; being a bit of a
draftsman myself, I was very interested at the glimpse into the process
that the artists used, and how very much it was like the way things are
still done thousands of years later.

- Fr. A.o.C.

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Secretary ECT wrote:
> 
> "Fr. A.o.C."  wrote in message news:<3E65169A.9B1EA7ED@slip.net>...
> > Secretary ECT wrote:
> >
> > > Taking it right back to basics; at the 0=0 level the candidate is
> > > disassembled. That is the candidate shares sympathetically the
> > > disassembling of Ani during the neophyte ceremony.
> >
> > Here's where our symbolic journey of the Aspirant deviates from the
> > system Westcott devised, based on the Ani Papyrus ('Book of the Dead').
> > Ours is NOT based on the Ani Papyrus. There are a number of reasons for
> > this, based on 100 more years of Egyptology that was unavailable to the
> > old leaders of the Order in the 19th century, and our own insights based
> > on that knowledge.

I must point out that I made an error in my previous reply: I took Fr.
Jean's remarks about the "disassembly" in the 0=0 as being a description
of the death and ressurection forumla found in the Ani papyrus and in
the old Order's 5=6. I misunderstood and replied according to my
misunderstanding. My apologies to Fr. Jean for my error in this regard.

- Fr. A.o.C.

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aethyr augoeides wrote:
> 
> Fr. A.o.C. wrote:
> >
> > > newzion@xtra.co.nz (Secretary ECT) (Jean) writes:
> > > >
> > > > The crucial point of the Golden Dawn mystery is the resurrection.
> >
> > With all respect to Frater Jean, the resurrection mythology of the
> > RRetAC is really a fundamental deficiency in the 2nd Order system
> > devised [...] by Mathers. It is the root of so many
> > problems that have arisen (forgive he pun) over the years with nearly
> > every GD order, including Mathers' own HOGD.
> >
> > Not that being "reborn" is not a useful magical formula. In fact, the
> > OSOGD uses the Osirian death-and-rebirth mythological cycle as the basis
> > for the Portal Grade. But we identify Osiris with the Green Man, the god
> > of vegetation (as did the ancient Egyptians), so his story is a
> > microcosm of the birth-death-rebirth cycle of nature.
> > no christian concepts lurking in FIOAF, eh? ;)
> >
> > The old Order placed their 'resurrection' in the 5=6 Adeptus Minor
> > Grade, which follows the Portal, and directly related it to the
> > Christian mythology. As such it was not a *bridge* to the 5=6, but
> > rather the *goal* of the 5=6 and in fact, the whole goal of their RRetAC
> > system -- to identify the Aspirant with Jesus Christ.
> >
> > Do I even need to lay out all the psychological problems that can arise
> > from identifying a person, especially in the charged atmosphere of
> > powerful magical rites, with the Christian Messiah?

> Yes. A word on inflation of the ego is in order. However, strictly
> biblical NT and gnostic sources would also have us see christ in
>
> 1) the poor
> 2) ourselves
> 3) just about everywhere

Aethyr makes an important point. It leads me to make two comments;

1) There are some who see in the GD and related systems a counterpart
of the dominant Christian paradigm (and this is especially true of GD
members who were raised in Christian families). As an outsider to
Christianity (i was raised in an atheist / agnostic / culturally
Jewish family), i have always found the "Christ formula" for fraternal
orders to be problematic, for exactly the reasons Aethyr stated: it
encourages egoistic claims. That is why i joined an order of
Co-Freemasonry, where there is an OT slant on the ceremony, with no
bodily resurrection or messianic role per se. 

2) Those whose cultural Christian conditioning leads them to see in
the story of Christ the same pointer that Aethyr makes toward "the
poor" may well benefit from comparing the GD with the Francican order
or, much more cogently, with the religion known as Lukumi or Santeria,
especially as practiced in Cuba and the Americas. In Santeria, Lazarus
of Dives (a beggar whose tale Christ relates) is elevated to the role
of deity as a syncretized "mask" for the Nigerian (West African) deity
Babalu-aye, who embodies disease, poverty, and suffering. 

> > Especially if that person was raised as a Christian?
> >
> > Think about it. One of the recurring problems with GD Orders is that
> > their upper echelons become raging egotists. Mathers' attitude in this
> > regard is legendary, as is Crowley's. Anyone attracted to ceremonial
> > magick is already possessed of a fair share of hubris, or they wouldn't
> > be able to make it work. Toss fifty-some-odd Adepts of that Order
> > together and you've got fifty-some-odd Messiahs in the same room. How
> > can there NOT be problems with this?
>
> Depends on yer idea of a 'messiah' i suppose. generally, i can see your
> point, of course, the common view of christianity conforms to this view
> you are promulgating.

Exactly! The "COMMON" view of Christianity. 

Perhaps the problem with "too many messiahs" in such GD-like orders
springs from their retention of a monotheistic outlook. 

In a polytheistic religious culture, there is room for plenty of self
expression in other roles -- including roles for women that are not
socially dependent upon the central male roles. Again, speaking only
of those religions that incorporate Christian elements and a "lodge"
like structure acquired from, or referential to, Freemasonry, Cuban
Santeria comes to mind, as does Haitian Voodoo. The latter is highly
influenced by Freemasonry, and, while it works with a different
pantheon of African deities than Santeria (having come from a
different region of Africa), there are enough similarities between the
two African diaspora religions, and between them and the ancient
Egyptian pantheon that the GD/OTO works with that a comparative study
is well worth the time.

> > The only reason to induce this kind of identification on a member of the
> > Order is if the Order is a reflection of the Christian religion, which
> > Mathers' RRetAC certainly was. There is no mention of Christianity per
> > se in the Ciphers; the word "Christ" appears only once, a reference to
> > the 'caduceus' as a source of miraculous healing. The Ciphers clearly
> > describe a Pagan magickal system, not a Christian one.
>
> so the materials you've posted seem (after perusing them a little, not a
> lot) would seem to suggest. but maybe we need to differentiate between
> 'churchianity' and 'christianity.' afterall, even some people's brand of
> thelema seems disturbingly close to the meek and mild/
> fire-and-brimstone BS bandied about so commonly in the South (for
> instance).

Agreed. 

> > Our order identifies the 5=6 with Ra-Horus -- a "king", a Sovereign --
> > but more importantly, with the sun -- a Star ("Every man and every woman
> > is a Star.") This kind of magickal 'identity' is not nearly so
> > problematic as fifty-some-odd Messiahs.
>
> unless people take an idiot view of Ra, as 'Lord of Vengeance'

 :-)
 
> > A gathering of fifty-some-odd Stars is a constellation. 
> > Messiahs are mutually exclusive ("There can be
> > only one!")
>
> Dogmas are mutually exclusive.
>
> "I'm the only one' - Tigger
> 'Yes, but each one of us is the only one, as well'
> - Tales of Pooh Narrator.
> 
> > Not so with Stars, of which there are untold billions.

This is a good point, too. It is one that Freemasonry avoided, by
never invoking the NT Messiah formula in the first place. In fact, an
argument might be made (i'm not making it, only proposing it) that the
OSOGD is restoring a Freemasonic element to the GD that was eliminated
by the Christian / Rosicrucian HOGD members for their own Christian
purposes. 

cat yronwode 

Hoodoo in Theory and Practice -- http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodoo.html

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catherine yronwode wrote:
 
> 1) There are some who see in the GD and related systems a counterpart
> of the dominant Christian paradigm (and this is especially true of GD
> members who were raised in Christian families). As an outsider to
> Christianity (i was raised in an atheist / agnostic / culturally
> Jewish family), i have always found the "Christ formula" for fraternal
> orders to be problematic, for exactly the reasons Aethyr stated: it
> encourages egoistic claims. That is why i joined an order of
> Co-Freemasonry, where there is an OT slant on the ceremony, with no
> bodily resurrection or messianic role per se.

The same sensitivity kept me from pursuing any of the 'old school'
magickal orders, even though I cut my teeth on the methods of the GD,
taking what I found useful and personalizing it. That process eventually
led me to Chaos Magick. Those who have worked with me in that realm can
tell you that I still used much of the GD/Thelema foundation with a
non-conformist spin. But as a Pagan I couldn't embrace the the Christian
elements, until the OSOGD came along.
 
> 2) Those whose cultural Christian conditioning leads them to see in
> the story of Christ the same pointer that Aethyr makes toward "the
> poor" may well benefit from comparing the GD with the Francican order
> or, much more cogently, with the religion known as Lukumi or Santeria,
> especially as practiced in Cuba and the Americas. In Santeria, Lazarus
> of Dives (a beggar whose tale Christ relates) is elevated to the role
> of deity as a syncretized "mask" for the Nigerian (West African) deity
> Babalu-aye, who embodies disease, poverty, and suffering.

The GD was always an elitist system -- all of the original members were
solidly middle class or above, with a very few "blue collar" exceptions
(R.A. Gilbert also stresses this point) -- much more so than even a
typical Freemason's lodge. Charitable works were simply not part of
their agenda. The only possible exceptions were Annie Hornniman who,
while a 'philanthropist', confined her charity to support of the arts
(and letting the Matherses sponge off her for a decade or so). And
Florence Farr ended her life as the headmistress of the first school for
girls in Sri Lanka, though she had long since resigned from the Order by then.
 
> > > Especially if that person was raised as a Christian?
> > >
> > > Think about it. One of the recurring problems with GD Orders is that
> > > their upper echelons become raging egotists. Mathers' attitude in this
> > > regard is legendary, as is Crowley's. Anyone attracted to ceremonial
> > > magick is already possessed of a fair share of hubris, or they wouldn't
> > > be able to make it work. Toss fifty-some-odd Adepts of that Order
> > > together and you've got fifty-some-odd Messiahs in the same room. How
> > > can there NOT be problems with this?
> >
> > Depends on yer idea of a 'messiah' i suppose. generally, i can see your
> > point, of course, the common view of christianity conforms to this view
> > you are promulgating.
> 
> Exactly! The "COMMON" view of Christianity.
> 
> Perhaps the problem with "too many messiahs" in such GD-like orders
> springs from their retention of a monotheistic outlook.

Give the lady a cigar!

> In a polytheistic religious culture, there is room for plenty of self
> expression in other roles -- including roles for women that are not
> socially dependent upon the central male roles. Again, speaking only
> of those religions that incorporate Christian elements and a "lodge"
> like structure acquired from, or referential to, Freemasonry, Cuban
> Santeria comes to mind, as does Haitian Voodoo. The latter is highly
> influenced by Freemasonry, and, while it works with a different
> pantheon of African deities than Santeria (having come from a
> different region of Africa), there are enough similarities between the
> two African diaspora religions, and between them and the ancient
> Egyptian pantheon that the GD/OTO works with that a comparative study
> is well worth the time.

I've made exactly the same point myself. Polytheism allows for
non-exclusive religious/philosophical viewpoints.
 
> > > The only reason to induce this kind of identification on a member of the
> > > Order is if the Order is a reflection of the Christian religion, which
> > > Mathers' RRetAC certainly was. There is no mention of Christianity per
> > > se in the Ciphers; the word "Christ" appears only once, a reference to
> > > the 'caduceus' as a source of miraculous healing. The Ciphers clearly
> > > describe a Pagan magickal system, not a Christian one.
> >
> > so the materials you've posted seem (after perusing them a little, not a
> > lot) would seem to suggest. but maybe we need to differentiate between
> > 'churchianity' and 'christianity.' afterall, even some people's brand of
> > thelema seems disturbingly close to the meek and mild/
> > fire-and-brimstone BS bandied about so commonly in the South (for
> > instance).
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> > > Our order identifies the 5=6 with Ra-Horus -- a "king", a Sovereign --
> > > but more importantly, with the sun -- a Star ("Every man and every woman
> > > is a Star.") This kind of magickal 'identity' is not nearly so
> > > problematic as fifty-some-odd Messiahs.
> >
> > unless people take an idiot view of Ra, as 'Lord of Vengeance'
> 
>  :-)

See my comments about the Buddhas of Wrathful Compassion.
 
> > > A gathering of fifty-some-odd Stars is a constellation.
> > > Messiahs are mutually exclusive ("There can be
> > > only one!")
> >
> > Dogmas are mutually exclusive.
> >
> > "I'm the only one' - Tigger
> > 'Yes, but each one of us is the only one, as well'
> > - Tales of Pooh Narrator.
> >
> > > Not so with Stars, of which there are untold billions.
> 
> This is a good point, too. It is one that Freemasonry avoided, by
> never invoking the NT Messiah formula in the first place. In fact, an
> argument might be made (i'm not making it, only proposing it) that the
> OSOGD is restoring a Freemasonic element to the GD that was eliminated
> by the Christian / Rosicrucian HOGD members for their own Christian
> purposes.

I'm glad you see it that way, Cat. We really do see our work as
'restoring' much of what was embodied in the original current, which
(according to my own 'conspiracy theory', was hijacked by European
Rosicrucians and perverted for their own dogmatic ends.

"We are the Rosicrucians of Borg. Your Pagan magical system called
'Golden Dawn' will be assimilated. Resistance is futile."

- Fr. A.o.C.


"We are Homer of Borg. Resistance is... Ooo, doughnuts!"

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Satyr wrote:

> "Fr. A.o.C."  writes:
> 
> > I'm glad you see it that way, Cat. We really do see our work as
> > 'restoring' much of what was embodied in the original current, which
> > (according to my own 'conspiracy theory', was hijacked by European
> > Rosicrucians and perverted for their own dogmatic ends.
> >
> > "We are the Rosicrucians of Borg. Your Pagan magical system called
> > 'Golden Dawn' will be assimilated. Resistance is futile."
> 
> An interesting point, but I'm having some difficulty seeing the
> "original current" somehow arising independent of European
> Rosicrucianism. Care to elaborate on that a bit? If the Cypher
> Manuscript is not an expression of Rosicrucian thought then what is
> it?

Well, that depends on what one considers to be "original current".

To my way of thinking, the original current of the GD consists of:

Egyptian and Hellenic Paganism: the godforms of Egypt and Greece (toss
in the Thracians of the Chaldean Oracles too, which the Rosicrucians
incorrectly attributed to Zorasterism) figure largely in the system
described by the Ciphers. Aside from the planetary designations used by
both, it's ridiculous to say that ANY form of Paganism was derived from
the Rosicrucians. 

Qabbala and the Hebrew Magical Language: The Qabbala is, of course, a
product of Hebrew mysticism, but even that was a product of the greater
Semetic and Cannanite Pagan culture -- the roots of which go back to the
Assyrians, the Sumerians and the Egyptians -- of which Judaism was only
a part. Even in the form of "Hermetic" Qabbala, it's roots are the same.
Christian Europe in Medieval and even Renaissance times was more
concerned with persecuting the "Christ-killer" Jews than enshrining
their esoteric thought, unless the stole it and perverted it first. The
only good thing they had to say about Judaism was that is was the
"precursor" to the True Faith of Christianity.

Astrology, Tarot, Geomancy: hardly an original products of Rosicrucianism.

Enochian: clearly a product of the work of two Christians, Dee and
Kelley. But they preceded the 'birth' of Rosicrucianism by almost 100
years. Furthermore, though Dee tried his level best to pound the
revelations of his Spirits into a Christian mold, it's hard to reconcile
Christianity with a lot of what the Spirits had to say -- for example,
Dee's own account says:

"They [the Spirits] would have persuaded him [Kelley]: 
- That Jesus was not God. 
- That no prayer ought to be made to Jesus. 
- That there is no sin. 
- That man's soul doth go from one body to another childes quickening. 
- That as many men and women as are now, as have already been. 
- That the generation of mankind from Adam and Eve, is not History, but
a writing which has another sense." (-- from "A True and Faithful Relation...")

The transmigration of souls, reincarnation -- and the denial of
'original sin', the divinity of Jesus, and Biblical literalism -- not
much in common with Rosicrucianism here. Sounds awfully Pagan to me.

Alchemy: Now here's a place where Rosicrucian influence might be found,
for they were obsessed with Alchemy. However, the Ciphers were not.
There is only the barest mention of basic Alchemical terms in the Golden
Dawn proper, in two of the Knowledge Lectures. Not much is done with it
after that.

What seems to be happening is that the Rosicrucians and the GD can claim
some COMMON roots, but to say that the GD was a direct PRODUCT of
Rosicrucianism is hardly supportable.

Rosicrucianism concerns itself with the re-casting of the Christ
mythology into the story of the allegorical Christian Rosencruz, who
represents Christ in a form that 'ordinary mortals' can aspire to emulate.

What we have here is a very telling example of the cultural chauvinism
of Medieval and Renaissance Europe. They proceeded from certain basic
immutable assumptions:

1. Christianity is the one and only True Way, the final product of all
human spirituality evolved into it's highest possible form. This kind of
philosophy found it's ultimate expression in the doctrine of Manifest
Destiny and the efforts of the Europeans to "Christianize" the entire
world -- whether the entire world liked it or not.

2. Therefore, all esoteric wisdom of any age preceding Christianity must
be a foreshadowing of Christianity and support it's conclusions (see
#1). Any evidence to the contrary must either be rejected outright or
manipulated into a form that supports #1. The "Christian Qabbala" is an
excellent example of this kind of manipulation -- and so is what the
Rosicrucians who got ahold of the GD materials did to it.

So what we have here is a classic case of the logical fallacy of
altering the facts to fit the conclusions, instead of altering the
conclusions to fit the facts.

My "conspiracy theory" about this is that once Mathers moved to Paris,
he was contacted by French and/or Belgian Rosicrucians who, having heard
of the GD through their SRIA connections, presented themselves to
Mathers as his legendary "Secret Chiefs" -- and basically ran a scam on
him. Mathers' gullibility in such matters is legendary (viz. the Horos
scandals). They convinced him that the GD was indeed a product of
Rosicrucianism (not a hard sell, since Mathers' own roots lay there) and
proceeded to feed him the "secret knowledge" on which he built his
radically deviant Second Order, the so-called "RRetAC". In so doing they
used the classic Christian modus operandi of co-opting a much older
Pagan-based set of practices and twisting them to fit their Christian
mold. IOW, they usurped the Golden Dawn from Paganism and perverted it
to serve their Manifest Destiny. This kind of thing goes all the way
back to St. Paul and his assimilation of Neo-Platonism and Mithrasism
into what we now think of as "Christian Doctrine", co-opting (and
re-writing) a minor Jewish religious prophet's teachings that were meant
specifically for Jews into a 'universally applicable' religious system,
which his successors (beginning with the converted Roman Empire)
proceeded to spread throughout the world at the point of a sword and the
barrel of a gun.

I'm sure there are many ways to challenge my conspiracy theory, as with
most conspiracy theories. What I hope it will do is inspire modern
practitioners of the WMT to take a good, hard look at their roots and
understand that much of what is simply accepted without question -- like
the idea that the GD is "an expression of Rosicrucian thought" -- can
indeed BE questioned, and SHOULD be.

Like Chuck D said: "Don't believe the hype!"

- Fr. A.o.C.


"The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead
of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit
their views ... which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one
of the facts that needs altering." -- Doctor Who

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From: glass@panix.com (Robert Scott Martin)
Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.magick.order,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.thelema
Subject: Re: Objectively Studying the GD
Date: 7 Mar 2003 14:40:55 -0500
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>> > "We are the Rosicrucians of Borg. Your Pagan magical system called
>> > 'Golden Dawn' will be assimilated. Resistance is futile."

In article <3E679AA0.C2F44533@slip.net>, Fr. A.o.C.  wrote:

>Well, that depends on what one considers to be "original current".

This is an extremely worthy (and exciting) line of inquiry. Please 
forgive me for doodling across your work in the childish impulse to 
"improve."

>Enochian: clearly a product of the work of two Christians, Dee and
>Kelley. But they preceded the 'birth' of Rosicrucianism by almost 100
>years.

Strike a zero (or two) there.

John Dee 1527-1608
Edward Kelly 1555-1593
Fama Fraternitatis (first recorded reference) 1610
Fama Fraternitalis ("replied to" in print) 1612

Dee's career in particular knots such a suspicious number of the threads
that would later produce the Rosicrucian outcry that Dame Frances herself
considered him "obviously placeable historically as a Renaissance magus of
the later Rosicrucian type."

>Alchemy: Now here's a place where Rosicrucian influence might be found,
>for they were obsessed with Alchemy. However, the Ciphers were not.
>There is only the barest mention of basic Alchemical terms in the Golden
>Dawn proper, in two of the Knowledge Lectures. Not much is done with it
>after that.

I'm with you there. 

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From: Re O'Stat 
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Subject: Re: Objectively Studying the GD
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In article <3E60819D.3D63064F@slip.net>, "Fr. A.o.C."  
wrote:


> 
> This requires one draw a distinction between Thelema and the Golden Dawn
> system. Our opinion (as stated on our site) is that there is no
> dichotomy between them but rather they form one continuous tradition.


And that explains it all.

This is identical to the attitude held by many Christians that 
Christianity is simply an outgrowth of Judaism, and therefore an 
advancement upon Judaism.

Jews would deny this. The Christians who hold that belief don't 
understand why Jews would do this.

Likewise, if you WERE the G.D., you'd understand that the GD is NOT 
Thelema. If you will, AL represents the new dispensation. The AA 
replaces the GD. It supercedes it.

Too bad.

Re

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From: glass@panix.com (Robert Scott Martin)
Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.magick.order,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.thelema
Subject: Re: Objectively Studying the GD
Date: 9 Mar 2003 13:14:50 -0500
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In article ,
Satyr   wrote:

>Thanks, Robert. An excellent point, and I'm glad an informed
>individual thought to make it. If memory serves, Sperber wrote that
>the Fama had been in circulation for more than 19 years before
>publication. Waite's only objection was that Sperber himself appears
>to be the only witness for this much earlier date. If true, this would
>place the time of authorship around 1595, or so.

Your memory of Arthur is better than mine. 

Sperber's an interesting name to drop here because he apparently serves as
another bridge between the early "Rosicrucian" upsurge, on the one hand,
and Agrippa and the ceremonialists on the other. How often do we consider
ceremonial magic as one of CRC's many fathers?

And since Enochian can be considered as a species of evocation, the Dee
connection looms a little larger.

Of course this becomes vanishingly tangential to discussion of just what 
constitutes the GD current. But perhaps it is relevant to talk of other 
orders that, for example, might embrace either Rosicrucianism or GD (or 
both) while rejecting Dee and his Enochian practice.

>Personally, I think that any modern, informed discussion of the
>'Rosicrucian event' must make reference to the work of Dame Frances
>Yates.

She's still incredibly rich after all these years. And I love the way you
phrase the furor here -- not a "sect" that emerges out of various shadowy
motivations and historical forces, but simply as a phenomenon, a verb. An 
"event."

--

Dee "had sown powerful seeds which were to grow to a strange harvest. It 
has been shown that the so-called 'Rosicrucian manifestos' published in 
Germany in the early 17th century are heavily influenced by Dee's 
philosophy, and that one of them contains a version of the MONAS." -- 
Yates, THE OCCULT PHILOSOPHY IN THE ELIZABETHAN AGE

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From: glass@panix.com (Robert Scott Martin)
Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.magick.order,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.thelema
Subject: Re: Objectively Studying the GD
Date: 11 Mar 2003 00:51:52 -0500
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In article ,
Satyr   wrote:

>Judging from the description of "Echo" in The Rosicrucian
>Enlightenment, it seems Sperber is indeed a bridge between Renaissance
>magic and the early days of Rosicrucian thought.

While looking for online versions of his work, I was pleasantly surprised
to see that at least one writer makes an effort
(http://www.levity.com/alchemy/sword.html) to track Enochian all the way
to Sperber's Baltic stomping ground. Granted, the "evidence" is anecdotal 
at best, but an expert in the field such as yourself could likely make a 
more authoritative reading.

Either way, Sperber and his Polish "Rosicrucian" milieu merit broader 
study, perhaps in connection with a fresh look at Sendivogius (and his 
unknown Cosmopolitan master, the alleged Scotsman whose wandering 
throughout Europe prepared the ground for the "alchemical" frenzy).

You know, the Warburg hands out research grants in Dame Frances' name for 
enterprising people who pursue work like this. 

>> Of course this becomes vanishingly tangential to discussion of just
>> what constitutes the GD current. But perhaps it is relevant to talk
>> of other orders that, for example, might embrace either
>> Rosicrucianism or GD (or both) while rejecting Dee and his Enochian
>> practice.
>
>To my mind, not as tangential as might first appear. Enochian elements
>are found in the Cypher Manuscript, and figure prominently in openings
>of the elemental grades found therein. As you are probably aware, I am
>of the opinion that without Enochian there would have been no Golden
>Dawn.

I accede to your more informed opinion here. My reluctance to get 
embroiled in Golden Dawn identity politics errs on the side of 
understatement.

The exciting question (for me) might now become: If we can find Enochian
and other "magia" in the roots of Rosicrucianism, how and why did the
distinction between the old RC current and the Golden Dawn come about? And
why does the Cypher Manuscript fail to transmit much concerning alchemy?

I expect these are old questions for insiders, but for one who considers 
Fraulein Sprengel to be as egregorious as CRC (or the Cosmopolitan for 
that matter), they're still virgin territory.

Magisterial paragraphs enshrined:

>Thank you. It was an insight of a sort that struck while washing the
>dishes and mulling over a response to Joseph's comments. Most
>discussions of the furor revolve around whether or not such a body of
>initiates existed prior to the Fama, as you say. This is highly
>problematic, and in the rush to determine the facts as they are known,
>what is to my mind the most important fact of all is too often lost in
>the scuffle: something happened in the years prior to 1614, or else
>we'd have never heard of the Brotherhood of the Rosy Cross.
>
>Whether this event was an idea in the mind of a single individual, or
>the result of some group effort, may never be known for certain, but
>that something happened of sufficient magnitude to plant the
>Rosicrucian archetype in the fertile minds of occultists of that age,
>and throughout the 400 years that followed, is beyond dispute. The
>publication of the Fama in 1614 is the appearance on the textual
>horizon of a watershed event that neatly divides the history of
>Western occultism into a before and an after.

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