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To: alt.magick,alt.magick.chaos,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick.moderated,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,soc.religion.christian,talk.religion.misc From:(nagasiva) Subject: Re: Catholic Magic is an Oxymoron (Was Re: Asatru newsletter) Date: 15 Apr 1996 17:50:58 -0700 kaliyuga (header adjusted; cc'd to FiatLVX moderators for possible repost) 49960415 tax day (US) srceress@bigdog.fred.net (the Sourceress): |>|>...Catholicism encompasses Magick....the fact that the Catholics don't |>|>realize that that's what it is has absolutely nothing to do with it.... tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva): |>|...Catholicism, at least of the Roman variety, does not in the least |>|contain magic, since magic is a spiritual practice which the Church |>|does not control. If it were *found* to contain magic, you can |>|be sure that the magic would quickly be controlled or exorcised and the |>|perpetrators subject to repetence or excommunication. ;> srceress@bigdog.fred.net (the Sourceress): |> I didn't say they "called" it magick, I said that's what it is. You said Catholicism 'encompasses magick' and I merely pointed out that it doesn't at all do so consciously, since consciously the Church distinguishes between its practices and those of others on the basis of relation to their deity, a clearly biased attitude if what you are saying is accurate. |> when Catholics do it, they call it religion, and when other people do it, |> then it's magick and it's bad. See what I'm getting at? Oh very much I do. That was my point too, though. I'm beginning (in my studies of magick's history) to survey the various meanings of the term and I wonder if its variation causes a fracturing within the occult community as we huddle together out of the inhospitable storm of ignorance in some part fostered by this Church). At one point magick seems to have been identified with a particular Persian religious caste, known as 'magi'. Later, it appears this was reassessed as to have been part of at least four different middle-eastern religious sects, centering in priest-magicians (Babylonians, Persians, Egyptians and Jews). These specialized in their rites and therefore were different than the Greeks and Romans, whose priesthood were more impermanent, at least according to Cavendish (_The History of Magic_). Beyond this it gets divided up by 'type' of magic where and when the Church authorities determine it is allowable or in their interest to engage (e.g. in the case of alchemy, which the Church appears to have not only endured but in some cases openly sought the aid of such arts -- it often terms them 'natural magic' when it approves; cf a similar relationship with Science in its early development: Galileo, etc.). It gets split into 'white' (which the Church supports) and 'black' (which the Church opposes) and it has fluctuated since then. I think today the RCChurch is opposed to black magic of any sort and most forms of white magic, the exceptions of which it would probably categorize as 'folk medicine' or 'folk magic' (botanicas, all kinds of charms, etc.) Either that or there's a whole lot of hypocrisy amongst Portuguese Catholics. This appears to be the popular usage of the terminology and, especially outside the occult community, when one speaks of 'magic' as black and white or as related to the Church of Rome, then you are delving into the authority of the Church and its language, as specifically expressed by the Pope and his assistants. matkisso@opal.tufts.edu: |...By all of the ways that I define magick .... the Catholicism certainly |uses the same kind of techniques used in magick. Really? Technique in what KIND of magick? See, there is all this Medieval material that has to do with summoning and controlling spirits/demons which I really don't think you're talking about (Enochian, Goetia, etc.). Then there is this Wiccan magick with goddess-worshipping and what the academics are wont to call 'low magic' on account of its typical material concerns, the foundation of an earth-goddess religion. I doubt the Pope would be really happy about that either, but you never know. In regards a great deal of the medieval magic as masticated from Jewish tradition to come into the instruction-books of ceremonial magicians, I would say that most magical systems are much more active in the central rite than modern Roman Catholicism tends to allow. I'm not talking about those who apply themselves to all the various living practices like the devout family in Indiana I met whose rosaries and blessings and whatnot were an important part of their social tradition on par with orthodox jews). I'm merely analysing here the rituals themselves and what parts the typical religious vs magicians play, are ALLOWED to play, by the RCatholic authorities. Let's be frank. When it comes to the Mass, the Church retains absolute authority on the dispensation of the rites which include the Mass, and I'm sure that it would back me on that also. There is a great biblical story about Simon Magus which demonstrates how important such things are to the Church (whence ariseth the term 'Simony', since he wanted to buy the formula from them, as many other magicians might have otherwise, and was soundly scolded). No, the central *magical* rite of Catholicism is out of the hands of its ordinary worshippers, even while they participate in less active roles such as the kneeling and prayers and responses. I have attended a few Masses of varying traditions. Never did I find the same concentrated focus in the moment within the pews of the church as within the magic circle, though there may be some who do. Is it transformative for the individual? Quite possibly. Is it as active a role (and thus as 'magical' in this more technical sensel)? I'd have to say no. Christian priestcraft is a specialized field, just like the previously-mentioned 'magicians', and the normal Roman Catholic leaves this specialization to the priest for a *reason*: because she doesn't want to handle the energy herself on behalf of the parishioners. Compare this to any other kind of technical specialist who serves for the unskilled masses. Would you want your mother hosted by a relative stranger when she comes to visit? Same goes for God when He comes down into the Church and changes that wafer and wine into flesh and blood for the Eucharist. The priests are God's hosts as much as is the wafer into which they direct theurgistic energies. They are servants, not really 'initiates' in the sense of taking their own actions like medieval Church clergy, who aimed Masses at one another and took payment for performing funeral rites as a means of directing curses. |...They want something that doesn't rest on the hierarchy that is the Church; I doubt this would be a problem if the Church accepted magical practice on the part of its adherents, but at this time I don't think this is so. |or they want something that doesn't have the bloody history of the Church; Most of the time I think people who go into magical practices are doing so in order to trespass the forbidden, and in this way the Catholic Church has done wonders for the recent popularity of occultism. I would think it would itself appreciate my firm focus upon the issue, since it would no doubt advise any Roman Catholic who is caught up in the practices of popular occult traditions to desist and consult a priest for confession and repentance. |or they want something that stressing personal integrity rather than an |externalized enforcement. This is often the case with converts with whom I have spoken. Their own family's religion 'was just a hollow ceremony without feeling'. It 'didn't have meaning for them', 'wasn't sufficient for their needs', etc. Often I have heard the worst criticisms of the former religions from the converts, and usually uneducated. It is for this reason that I have occasionally very strongly challenged extreme statements about current religious authorities, including RCatholic. I don't want people to get away with awful lies about the Church, pro or con, either striking it as the Great Master behind every evil (akin to what was done to Jews by Christians, historically) or the good press of coming off as more accepting (its rites are *magical*!) than it really is. |Tyagi's definition of magic as a spiritual practice that the Church cannot |control ...is valid. ...Catholicism and magic are then inimical to each |other. My main aim was to illustrate this as a function of how the definition of magick has changed over the years and why this might have been the case. I think it may not be worth our time to arrive at one definition of the term. Easier to accept a broad range of definitions, learning more about the art and science piecemeal than to have to find some way of getting all the mages in the discussion to agree (yeh, right) or sifting to decide on The Perfect Definition (TM). And for this reason I find it valuable to hoist the Church upon its own terminology, since I find it offensive and want the strength of what it conveys to the average listener, who has no knowledge of these arts and sciences, to shine through to the occult world without deception. I think the Roman Catholic Church is an opponent of Catholic magicians and I'd like to get confirmation or rejection of this hypothesis. Compare the attempted deception of saying 'the Mass is magical' to what in Islam is called 'taqiyya', where language is shifted so as to provide the *illusion* that the Muslim conforms to the social norm when in fact aside from the main spiritual interactions (if any, by some reports there is not too much conflict between the Shi'ites and Sunni Muslims who live near to one another), there is a significant rift between each in theory and practice. The Roman Catholic Church benefits from the *illusion* it has created within the minds of a great host of Christians that magic is not a part of Christianity, and that the competing religious practices which it resembles and in some cases from which it derives, which it CALLS magic and eshews accordingly, are worthy of opposition. This is an abomination if it is still true, and so I ask if it is by claiming it from my (minute) knowledge! I don't figure I'll change anything, but I will bring to bear the issue of 'Roman Catholic mages'. I challenge the very notion and wonder how any Roman Catholic can claim that their Church supports magick in any way (excluding it to its own specialist priesthood, only males, etc.). |...By my definition [i.e. when you use the term you mean by the term], |magick ...is a set of practices meant to bring about change, positive |change. The change in question can be personal, emotional, physical, etc. I like this definition very much, though its inclusivity is overbroad for many a mage. |...isn't the combination of the mysteries and sacrements supposed to |bring about positive changes in people? Yes, and the activating force of that rite is the priestcraft, who are specialists. They are doing what outsiders would call 'magick', but the people who are accepting the eucharist aren't considered, generally, to have contributed to this energetically, as in a Gnostic Mass or a Wiccan ritual, for example. |...The Church uses some very magical tools to do [help people become |more 'Christ-like', moving away from sin]. The weekly repetition of |the ritual of the Mass can stultify ["sin and pettiness" (sin)], Great, so the priests are doing magick in that sense, I agree, but the Church would not, I'll wager. I'll bet the RCC is very hesitant to identify with anything close to 'magic'. |...it can also allow you to know the procedure so well that you can |enter the ritual without stumbling over when to genuflect. What immediate change does the genuflection result in such that it would conform to *your* notion of magick? |Some people do the Middle Pillar ritual every day for a similar reason. You are idealizing this, but I accept your suggestion. There are certainly some for whom the rite of the Catholic Mass is a transformative experience, though I must admit I sometimes wonder of the value of the alteration. |Catholicism claims to rest on the authority of God. My friend was insisting |that that one fact took the religion out of the realm of magick. By his |definition, magick must *not* posit any external deity -- evocation only, |and no invocations allowed. His claim runs contrary to the history of magick as I understand it. On these grounds the Church is merely discerning its own lines of authority. Is that all there is to this religion stuff is who gets to wave the wand? Is his assertion the essential debate point of Catholics? Your friend must not have been considering magicians those who do all the active work and don't accept the notion of a separate deity from the God of Christianity. Apparently there is quite a long history of Christian magick of this type throughout Europe amongst Rosicrucians and Hermetics drawing on God, IHVH, Jesus and the Host of Angels to do what are at times consider blasphemous acts (summoning spirits, etc.). |...the psychological techniques used by the Church are pretty parn |similar to those used by magic(k)ians. What techniques are used? Any mind-control cult can run its sheep through recitations and coordinated movements. If any RCatholic claims that the Mass is magical for those *other* than the priest and his attendants in the transubstantiation, please explain what *about* the Mass qualifies it as 'magick' and whether you think the Church would agree with your assessment of how the rite should go. I suspect the supplicants are expected to adhere to a greater degree of receptivity and reflection on penitence than some sort of magical act. If they knew about variations they might want to do something about it (counsel their attendees, etc.). Corrections welcome. tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com nagasiva -- Ensure my response - CC public replies to email (READ news:alt.magick.tyagi) (emailed replies may be posted) http://www.hollyfeld.org/~tyagi/nagasiva.html SEEK INFO: http://www.hollyfeld.org/~tyagi/magi.html (PROTEST: 'indecency')
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