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To: alt.magick
From: parker@msus1.moorhead.msus.edu (PARKER RYAN)
Subject: Necronomicon (9408.nconhpl.pr)
Date: 49940802

Quoting: | Raven (JSINGLE@MUSIC.LIB.MATC.EDU); |>PARKER RYAN (etc....)

|>|>Are you implying that Lovecraft himself made up the Necronomicon and the
|>|>entire Cthulhu Mythos?                                              
    ^^^^^^
    ^^^^^^ 
|>| No.  I am stating it outright, and as bluntly as I can.
|>
|>Then you are SADLY incorrect (... stuff deleted)                        

| Excuse me, but I think just possibly you may be missing the point a bit.

NO, I think you're the one missing the point!!! You said that HPL "made up"
(ie created from scratch) the ENTIRE Cthulhu mythos. This is an uninformed
and uneducated opinion that I was trying to correct. 

| I did not suggest that HPL had created the whole world of myth, or even
| the rich and ornate subset of it that springs from the Middle East.

Maybe you should read my post again because no one said you suggested any
thing like that. You seem to have a great deal of trouble understandin
some of the post you respond to.

| as Stephen King points out.

Aaack!! Stephen King is one of the most unscholarly, ill informed authors
to ever write on HPL. Why on earth would you use him as a reference?

| Grimoires, books of magic, in great number, either come from that
| area -- or are attributed to it, for the same reason.

I didn't just say a "grimoire" I mentioned that Arab myth writes about
"evil" books of poetry written by Mad Poets. These books were said to
contain the secrets of vastly powerful being that pre-exist mankind! Does
this sound a little familiar?!?

| (HPL created the Mad Poet)

WRONG!! He created Abdul Alhazred NOT the "Mad Poet". Majnun the Arabic
word for "mad" also means "possessed by Jinn" (jinn were the powerful
entities that fell from the sky eons before man. They built huge cities
etc and HPL stated that they and his Great Old Ones were one in the same
ie he based the GOO on the Jinn) Poets were said to be inspired by Jinn.
Both the word Majnun (mad) and "poets" have special meaning to the
Muqarribun (Arab magicians) and Sufis. The Mad Poet is an important theme
in certain Arab mystical and magickal writings (some of which HPL is known
to have read)  

| He did not create Irem.

At least you got that right. Some Lovecraft "scholars" say that he
created Irem.

| HPL created the specific Mythos of his stories, involving Cthulhu,
| Yog-Sothoth, and Nyarlathotep.  He did not create Thoth or Imhotep,
| whom you may find in books on ancient Egypt; merely adapted the
| sounds of their names.  He did not create all pre-Christian theogonies,
| merely his own -- lent plausibility by the prior existence of others.

If you are implying that he created Cthulhu whole cloth your WRONG. He
based Cthulhu on the Near Eastern "sleeping" Dragon of the Abyss
(Primordial Ocean). There is strong evidence that even the name Cthulhu is
based on the Arabic "C'athulu" (Khadhulu). The myth-forms of the God that
is the "Nuclear chaos at the center of infinity" and the God that is "the
All is One, One is All" (ie coterminous with all time and space) were
fairly well known in the time and place that the Mad Poet was said to have
lived as were corruptions of Egyptian god names. Nyarlathotep may well be
Nyharluthotep. Yog-Sothoth could be Yak-Sut-Thoth. Azathoth might be
Asa-Thoth. 

| The "Goat with a Thousand Young" whose presence creates helpless terror
| strongly suggests Pan (goat-footed and horned) the source of Panic.
| Again, the readers are expected to make that connection and believe
| the story more for its similarity to other things they already know.

You are forgeting that Pan is a later version of many other Goat gods.
Both the ancient Egyptians and Sumerians worshiped the "Black Goat".

| it (is) important
| for any reader wanting to know the truth, not to assume that one piece
| of true history or ancient myth makes the whole story a true history or
| an ancient myth.  

No! Really? Wow, I never would have figured that out. |-) Just kidding, no
flame intended. I didn't see any body making this mistake (unless we count
you not making enough of ancient myth)

Below is a SHORT list of some of the parallels between Arab myth and magick
and HPL. After studying this list and doing a few years of research (I've
researched this topic for over a dozen years. I don't mean a little here and
there. I mean over 12 years steady! This is one of my favorite areas to
research.) I'd like to here your opinion. However continuing to spout ill
informed opinions an dogmas is uninteresting and a little silly. Do some
SERIOUS research and then get back to me!

=======================================================================
         Arab Myth                      |         HPL's Cthulhu Mythos
(or other Near Eastern Myth)            |
                                        | 
An ancient and powerful dragon sleeping | An ancient Dragon-like monster  
in the Abyss (primordial Ocean). This   | that dreams in the Ocean. The
Dragon is associated with the word      | monster is named "Cthulhu"
"C'athulu" (Khadhulu) in Arab Myth      |  
                                        |
A race of Fish-men (from the sea of     | 
Kakar) probably based on the minions    | The Deep-Ones
of Dagon (Oannes) which were semi-      |
Divine fish-men.                        | 
                                        |
Dagon the Philistine fish-man deity (a  | The fish-man deity Dagon
later version of Oannes)                |
                                        |
The black goat (fertility "god") called |  The "perverse fertility" deity   
Azn in Arabic. The Arab versions is a   |  Known as "The black goat with  
later version of the Goat Gods of Egypt |  a thousand young"
and Sumer.                              |
                                        |
The human like monsters know as Ghuls.  | 
Ghuls are said to often live in grave-  | HPL's Ghouls are have the same
yards. They occasionally attack human   | habits.
and have a monstrous facial appearance  |
                                        |
The God that is the primal center of the|
universe. The "lord of all" at the      | Azathoth the "lord of all" the 
center. (the name Azathoth may be a     | primal nuclear chaos at the
corruption of the Egyptian "Asa-thoth") | center of infinity.
This god is the balancing opposite of   |
the god below.                          |  
                                        |
The God that is the "all is one" ie is  | Yog-Sothoth fits this
coterminous with all space and time.    | description very well
(Yog-Sothoth may be a corruption of the |
Egyptian "Yak-Sut-Thoth                 |
                                        |
The messenger heart and soul of the Gods| Nyarlathotep the messenger, 
Messenger gods are often associated     | heart, and soul of the Other 
with the above myth forms. (Nyarlathotep| Gods
may be a corruption of the Egyptian     |
Nyharluthotep)                          |

Powerful prehuman entities once ruled   | You will notice that this 
earth. they fell from heaven (the sky)  | description of the Jinn is 
eaons before the coming of man. They    | identical to HPL's Great Old   
built huge cities of stone. They are    | Ones. Indeed HPL state that 
still some of these entities (jinn)     | Jinn and the GOO are one in
in old and lonely places. Arab myth     | the same.
says that they are usually invisible to |
men. It also tell of attempts to inter- |
breed humans and Jinn                   |
                                        |
An "evil" book of poetry that contains  | Necronomicon fits this to 
the secrets of races older than man.    | the letter!
                                        |
The Al Azif of the howling of the Jinn  | The call associated with the       
(insect noises).                        | Great Old Ones. Al Azif. The 
                                        | humming of the "mi-go"
                                        |
The Mad Poet. Ie he who is possessed by | The Mad Poet "Abdul Alhazred"
Jinn and whose writings are inspired by | who is said to have known
the (powerful prehuman) Jinn.           | the Great Old Ones and to 
                                        | recorded their secrets in    
                                        | in his book.
                                        |
Irem of the Pillars is associated with  |
the "Old Ones" (by name) and is a gate  |         Ditto!
to another "plane"                      |
                                        |
The Rub al Khali is associated with     |         Ditto!  
Powerful prehuman entities as well as   |
Great Void.                             |
                                        |
Beth Shaggathai?                        | Pit of Shoggoths?
=====================================================================


The above is only a partial list of the correspondence between Arab myth
and magick and HPL's mythos. There is MUCH more but this is some of the
areas that interest me the most (from a magickal point of view).

After SERIOUSLY researching Arab myth and magick and HPL's obvious
adaptations of it for a few years I'd be curious to here from you again.
Until then I think that your statement that HPL "Made up the ENTIRE
Cthulhu Mythos" is uneducated, uninformed and just plain WRONG!! 

No flame intended. I just get a little carried away when people start
making dogmatic statements about one of my main areas of intrest. No hard
feeling I hope |-)

Best Regards
Ryan Parker
parker@mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu