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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick From: catherine yronwodeSubject: Re: The Carroll, Cat, and Nguyen Troll Club Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 09:59:06 GMT Old Coyote wrote: > > "Tom" wrote > > The most prominent example > > of her maintenance of deniability is her blanket > > claim that she sells these trinkets "as curios only". > > Yes, I noticed that. Honestly though, I can't see how what she is doing > is different than any other occult shop owner. The use of that terminology "sold as a curio only" is as deliberately retro-deco as the labels i create for the spiritual supplies we make. Such disclaimers used to be required by law in some states -- but since the days of deregulation and wide acceptance of spiritual claims of all sorts, they are no longer needed. I added those antique, quaint words to my labels in homage to the wonderful and mysterious conjure shops of my youth. It's like playing an acoustic guitar -- ya know? I mean, they have electric guitars now, and synthesizers that almost sound exactly like electric guitars ... but some folks still play acoustic guitars. Why? Because they want to. Some of them even play old songs -- songs written a hundred years ago ... or more! Tom has been told this often enough, but every few months he pretends to question why i make my shop look old and the labels look old. It's art, you know. Just art. Tom repeatedly claims that i "cynically" sell spiritual supplies that i have no faith in or use of. If i see his posts embedded in the posts of someone whose messages i read, i generally take time to comment that i do indeed believe in natural magic and practice it. I shall now go to google and dig up the same old same old post where i first answered Tom's question: It dates from November, 2002, but you will find it posted a few more times since then, because he keeps on forgetting it. --------------------------------------------------------------- Tom: > Either you're cynically selling crap you feel to be > inherently worthless or you really believe that > it has the power it's said to have. The latter. As i have stated many times for your benefit. You can save yourself a lot of repetition by clipping this out and copying it to your desktop and referring to it when you have questions about my beliefs. Here: Cue the music. I, catherine yronwode, do solemnly swear that i, Do you believe in magic in a young girl's heart, having had personal experiences with magic, witchcraft, How the music can free her, whenever it starts? hoodoo, root work, and conjure, and being a practitioner of magic, And it's magic, if the music is groovy witchcraft, hoodoo, root work, and conjure of many years standing, It makes you feel happy, like an old-time movie believe that certain roots, herbs, seeds, stones, minerals, bones, I'll tell you about the magic, and it'll free your soul, zoological curios, words, prayers, psalms, hymns, chants, talismans, But it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock and roll pentacles, seals, veves, firmas, diagrams, angelic writings, If you believe in magic, don't bother to choose divination systems and devices, numeration and numer-symbolism, If it's jug band music or rhythm and blues candles, oils, incense, powders, floor washes, colognes, Just go and listen; it'll start with a smile amulets, prints, posters, statues, cards, prayer wheels, It won't wipe off your face no matter how hard you try body fluids, personal concerns, deities, saints, fetishes, dolls, Your feet start tapping and you can't seem to find discarnate spirits, ancestral spirits, and spirits of the dead How you got there, so just blow your mind do contain, or are embued with, or can be embued with magical If you believe in magic, come along with me and/or spiritual energies or forces perceptible to the gifted We'll dance until morning, 'til there's just you and me or trained mage, witch, hoodoo, root worker, or conjure and And maybe, if the music is right that these objects of nature and artifice may, by will and skill, I'll meet you tomorrow, sort of late at night be used by a gifted or trained mage, witch, hoodoo, root worker, And we'll go dancing, baby, then you'll see or conjure to achieve physical changes in the world How the magic's in the music and the music's in me through non-material means. These several beliefs Yeah, do you believe in magic? are the result of my personal experiences, but although i am Yeah, believe in the magic of a young girl's soul? well satisfied with these beliefs at present, Believe in the magic of rock and roll? i do not seek to impose or inflict them upon others Believe in the magic that can set you free? by any rhetorical means, including argument Ohh, talking 'bout magic by presumed authority, ridicule of opposing beliefs, Do you believe like I believe? Do you believe in magic? or extended debate about the nature of magic, Do you believe like I believe? Do you believe, believer? witchcraft, hoodoo, root work, and conjure, Do you believe like I believe? Do you believe in magic? or the nature of belief itself. {Fade} > So, either your a conniving huckster or > you're trying to deny the religious nature of your beliefs. I have never denied my beliefs. The fact that i -- and others -- clearly distinguish religiosity from spirituality has nothing whatever to do with what i -- or they -- personally believe. Likewise, knowing that someone equates religiosity with spirituality tells me nothing about what they personally believe. [...] cat yronwode [song credit: "Do You Believe in Magic" by The Lovin' Spoonful] --------------------------------------------------------------- Despite that post (and repost) Tom comes back again with the same old question: > > How can we assume that she truly believes that these > > products can do she says they can when she is very > > careful to keep the door open to an official denial > > that they are anything but trinkets? See, it doesn't matter how often i tell him what i believe and practice, he waits a few months and then starts in on this same rant. I believe in and practice magic. I also grow and sell herbs and herb-based spiritual supplies used in folk-magical practices by people of European, Asian, Indigenous American, and African cultural descent. I sell candles, too, and books on occultism. I import and sell religious iconography, statuary, and jewelry as well, from a variety of religions, including Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, Judaism, "Hinduism" (a catch-all phrase for Shaivism, Shaktiism, and Vaishnavism). I also import and sell small charms and amulets used by people in many cultures around the world, some of which are ostensibly religious and others of which are ostensibly magical -- with the commonality among them all being that they are primarily examples of folk-art as well as of exemplars of spiritual beliefs. There are about 2,100 separate items in my catalogue. Obviously i do not practice all the religions whose goods i import, nor have i performed every type of magical working mentioned in the books i sell or indicated for use in the lore and legends surrounding the oils, powders, and incenses we compound on the premises. But i believe in magic and practice it and have no trouble stating as much in usenet or anywhere else i am asked. > I suppose she could simply be a very mercenary person who > has researched a market in detail, and is providing service > to that market in a very cold way, but her enterprise just > doesn't have that feel. That's why I don't have a problem > assuming she believes in it, the breadth of information > available on her site suggests a lot of research, which > generally, uninterested parties won't bother with. Thank you for noticing, Old Coyote. I could practice magic and write about it without owning a shop -- and i did so for many years, of course -- but creating the Lucky Mojo Curio Company has proven to be one of the most satisfying decisions i ever made. Here's why i did it: In the first place, my parents owned a wonderful antiquarian bookstore and i grew up working in it, so i love being a shop keeper in a great, dusty, colourful, walnut-shelved, hodge-podge storehouse of old and fabulous and strange treasures available to those who seek them. Furthermore, i love living in the country and having chickens and a garden, so growing herbs is a pleasure to me. In other words, i have created a space to work in that i love, that uplifts me, and that allows me to enjoy myself every day. Second, as a young woman i loved buying my personal magical supplies in old conjure shops and hoodoo drugstores, and i was saddened to see them slowly disappearing from the scene and being replaced by New Age, Neo-Pagan, and Wicca shops. That's why i decided to recreate a fully functional 1930s-1960s era conjure shop from scratch, keeping every aspect of the shop as authentic to the aesthetics i first discovered in such shops as a teenager in 1964. The labels, catalogue wording, and overall style of the shop are important to me as an artist -- but i have even gone so far as to revive old patterns of figural candles that had fallen out of manufacture over the years and to carry old-fashioned household goods like laundry sprinklers and hair brilliantine -- because, just because. Recently my artistic efforts were rewarded when i was hired to outfit a complete conjure shop for an upcoming Hollywood movie. Obviously someone at Universal Pictures had noticed and appreciated my artistic talents, and even though the scene is a short one and not central to the plot of the film, i am happy to say that hundreds of carefully selected and beautifully hand-made Lucky Mojo spiritual supplies will be seen on screen. The emphasis i place on artistry in ad copy and label design and on hand-made folk-art supplies is personal and has only tangential reference to my interest in and practice of magic. However, it is precisely in my artistic recreation of the old conjure shop aesthetic -- the "sold as a curio only" tag line-- that Tom Schuler finds the fuel for his continual personal attacks on me. He's been told why the tag line is there, but he doesn't seem to understand or care. Thus we see again and again his raving about how it constitutes "deniability" -- > > [...] unless they maintain some kind of deniability, as Cat does. -- but it's not about "deniability" -- it's about my homage to Morton Neumann and the Valmor / King Novelty Co. / Famous Products catalogues of 1937. Some people still like to play acoustic guitar. Get it? > > > I couldn't see any pricing on her website that indicated > > > she was charging anything for supernatural properties. That is true. We do not charge for spiritual properties. > I think the critical issue is, > *how much* money is she making? I know it seems banal, but it is > important to understand, under a cost breakdown, where the money goes > when one buys her products. > > The reason for this is, the actual magic is understood to be generated > by the customer. Cat is really only charging for the materials, and the > labour required to assemble said materials into formats suitable for > the intended purpose. > > If she were applying a surcharge for supernatural properties of her > products, then she would very definitely be guilty of what you accuse > her of. As it is, she doesn't seem to be doing that. Again, thank you for noticing. At Lucky Mojo, herbs are priced according to the time spent growing and harvesting them, or by their cost to us if we cannot grow them. Incense, powders, bath crystals, and oils are priced according to the cost of ingredients plus packaging plus the labour time spent assembling them. Candles, holy cards, statuary, and amulets are marked up according to the same principles of non-chain-store retail marketing you will find anywhere. The fact that we pray over the products we make (or "charge them" or "empower them" to use common Neo-Pagan terminology) is not accounted for in the cost. If requested, we also dress candles with oils and herbs and pray over them -- at no extra charge for the oils, herbs, or prayers. > In my mind, this dovetails quite well with her (often publicy stated) > background in comic books. Which may be irrational, but man I read a > lot of comics when I was a kid. > > Do you remember X-Ray glasses? I am certain that she is not > misrepresenting her products to anywhere near that degree, but > nevertheless I get a similar sense from her catalog. X-Ray Specs advertised by the Johnson-Smith Novelty Co. in the comics were not magical in nature -- but Johnson-Smith did indeed sell lucky rabbits foot charms and many styles of magical talisman rings, as well as cheap English-language reprints of German grimoires like "The Egyptian Secrets of Albertus Magnus." However, i think what you have identified here is the overall retro-deco aesthetic i was describing earlier. I am, indeed, deliberately patterning my catalogue art and copy writing on both the magical ***and the non-magical*** catalogues and magazine ads of the 1930s, including Sears, Montgomery Ward, Johnson-Smith, Valmor, Lucky Heart, King Novelty, and so forth. If you were to send for the paper version of the Lucky Mojo catalogue, to visit the shop, or to see the labels on the products we make, this would all be quite clear to you. > > > As I said above, if she actually believes those things, then she is > > > certainly free to advertise her products that way, provided she > > > doesn't charge a premium. > > > > As I said above, there is good evidence that she does not in fact > > believe those claims. That's a bizarre statement from Tom, given my 7-year usenet history of posting and writing about my belief in magic and my practice of magic. cat yronwode photo-tour of the Lucky Mojo Curio Co, Occult Shop: http://www.luckymojo.com/mojocatphotos.html
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