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To: alt.magick,alt.magick.serious,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.pagan.magick From: nagasiva@luckymojo.com (nagasiva) Subject: Gematria and Numerology (was The Four Fold Puzzle Of ....) Date: 30 Aug 1999 11:24:05 -0700 49990830 IVom Tom Schuler asks 'Proxie': #># Please explain the difference between gematria and numerology. nguyenoffers one possibility: #> How about gematria is a specific symbolic system derived #> from certain mystical and religious studies popularly #> known as qaballa and is sometimes used in numerology which #> could be defined simplistically as the general body of #> methodologies which seeks to find religious, spiritual, #> or prophetic value in various systems such as gematria? false. gematria precedes kabbalah and its counterfeits by decades and centuries. "Tom Schuler" : # The specific symbols involved are numbers and letters. true, but in kabbalah my understanding is that 'gematria' is differentiated from other systems of numerolinguistic (for example, notariqon and kemura). # Specifically it is the attribution of numerical values # to letters of an alphabet and the apparent derivation # of some subtle truths therefrom. That's what numerology # is and that is what gematria is. so you equate numerology (which I would say include the study and use of systems of numerolinguistics) with gematria (which appears to have originated with the Greeks if not the Sumerians with the specification of a particular alphabet and its numeric value system)? if so, how do your understandings of these terms differ from those I have offered above? thanks. # The only differences between the different forms of # numerology are the alphabets used, the numbers associated # with them, and the particular meanings of those numbers. with this of course I somewhat agree. there are also subtle differences in the MANNER of valuative attribution and there is not always an alphabet used in regards numerology (where the formula derives a number from a date, for example). the most straight-forward numerolinguishic is a direct association between letters and numbers (in English, a=1, b=2... z=26) and the presumption of identity or resonance between words of similar cumulative value with one another (Hermetic gematria appears to have adopted a specific value-system and used this method). an example of a very particular system of numerology is that which is known by this name in European history (one may find it in grimoires and occult books through the centuries) which associates particular significances to numbers in general and the use of numerolinguistics or quasi-mathematics to derive a number from the definition-set (in the European this often turns out to be 1-9, sometimes including 10, 11, 12, even 22 where it becomes Hermetic). where this extends outside gematria (and indeed outside all numerolinguistic systems) is the reduction of significant numbers such as one's birthdate to a single number). there are of course other systems in other cultures, though they are not always called "numerology" per se. if the name makes the animal, then there may be very few of these. if we include all identifications of number as symbol then we can probably include the Pythagoreans and all cultures before and after who may have worked in any depth with numbers. nagasiva -- emailed replies may be posted; cc replies if response desired Path: ultra.sonic.net!remarQ-easT!newsfeed1.news.nl.uu.net!sun4nl!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!remarQ60!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail From: Lucky Mojo Curio Company Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.magick.serious,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.pagan.magick Subject: Re: Gematria and Numerology (was The Four Fold Puzzle Of ....) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 22:33:39 -0700 Organization: Lucky Mojo Curio Co. Lines: 86 Message-ID: <37CB6933.35E8@luckymojo.com> References: <37C6F8AE.E24E3698@river.it.gvsu.edu> <3tEx3.14392$FG4.604431@news1.teleport.com> <7qei85$t1j@bolt.sonic.net> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: ultra.sonic.net alt.magick:156995 alt.magick.serious:4446 alt.magick.tyagi:18091 alt.pagan.magick:17271 Tom Schuler wrote: > > nagasiva wrote > > > > so you equate numerology (which I would say include the study > > and use of systems of numerolinguistics) with gematria (which > > appears to have originated with the Greeks if not the > > Sumerians with the specification of a particular alphabet > > and its numeric value system)? > > No. Gematria is a form of numerology. There are other forms. The > terms are not identical. One subsumes the other. > > > there are also subtle > > differences in the MANNER of valuative attribution and there > > is not always an alphabet used in regards numerology (where > > the formula derives a number from a date, for example). > > Yes, that's so. Gematria is numero-linguistic numerology, as you say. > The Millenium hysteria is due to a purely numerical form. Tom, i see how you can consider gematria to be a form of numerology, but i think of it differently: Numerology is any system in which numbers are given symbolic, emotional, or spiritual values. The overwhelmingly most common application of numerology is to reduce words or dates (comples numbers) to a single digit (or occasionally, as tyagi nagasiva noted, to the numerals 1 - 9 plus 10, 11, and 22). This is done by a process called "involution." Here's a sample using the most common English alpha-numeric equivalence table (a = 1; z = 26): cat 3 + 1 + 20 = 24 24 = 2 + 4 = 6 cat = 6 (cat is exemplified by whatever "6" is said to mean) In this sytem, each word, sentence, name, or date can be summed up as representative of one of 9 "spiritual flavours." This has both symbolic import and use in divination. For instance, "5 is the number of mankind" is a truism of straight hermetic numerology, but speaking divinitorily, if a person's name "reduces" to 5, one tells them "you will travel a lot." Gematria, on the other hand, seeks to find links between otherwise unrelated WORDS and uses numbers merely as a decoding key. The numbers themselves have no inherent value except insofar as certain Very Important Words (e.g. deity names) bear those numbers. Typically, also, gemnatria does not seek to "reduce" long numbers to a single digit, but will work with numbers up to at leasdt 4 digits, creating thereby an expanded symbolic set of at least 9,999 "flavours" of meaning. Here's a sample using the same common English numbering system: cat 3 + 1 + 20 = 24 bang 2 1 14 7 = 24 cat = bang See how different the two techniques are? Numerology seeks to interpret the meaning of words through the meaning of the numbers assigned to the letters that comprise them; gematria seeks to equate pairs of words by means of a numerical code. Just my 2 cents (or "just my 11 cents," as we say over in alt.tv.homicide). cat yronwode Lucky Mojo Curio Co. http://www.luckymojo.com/luckymojocatalogue.html Spells Archive ----------------- http://www.luckymojo.com/spells.html Lucky W Amulet Archive --------- http://www.luckymojo.com/luckyw.html The Esoteric Archive --------- http://www.luckymojo.com/esoteric.html Karezza and Sacred Sex ------ http://www.luckymojo.com/sacredsex.html The Sacred Landscape ------- http://www.luckymojo.com/sacredland.html Freemasonry for Women ------- http://www.luckymojo.com/comasonry.html The Mage's Guide to the Internet ------ http://www.luckymojo.com/magi Comics Warehouse ------ http://www.luckymojo.com/comicswarehouse.html news:alt.lucky.w --- discussions on folk magic, luck, amulets, charms Path: ultra.sonic.net!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!news.kjsl.com!news.new-york.net!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!nntp.teleport.com!news1.teleport.com!not-for-mail From: "Tom Schuler" Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.magick.serious,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.pagan.magick References: <37C6F8AE.E24E3698@river.it.gvsu.edu> <3tEx3.14392$FG4.604431@news1.teleport.com> <7qei85$t1j@bolt.sonic.net> <37CB6933.35E8@luckymojo.com> Subject: Re: Gematria and Numerology (was The Four Fold Puzzle Of ....) Lines: 54 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 04:26:53 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.26.5.132 X-Complaints-To: news@teleport.com X-Trace: news1.teleport.com 936098725 216.26.5.132 (Tue, 31 Aug 1999 04:25:25 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 04:25:25 PDT Organization: Teleport Inc. Xref: ultra.sonic.net alt.magick:156999 alt.magick.serious:4448 alt.magick.tyagi:18093 alt.pagan.magick:17272 Lucky Mojo Curio Company wrote in message news:37CB6933.35E8@luckymojo.com... > Tom Schuler wrote: > > > > No. Gematria is a form of numerology. There are other forms. The > > terms are not identical. One subsumes the other. > > Tom, i see how you can consider gematria to be a form of numerology, but > i think of it differently: > > Numerology is any system in which numbers are given symbolic, emotional, > or spiritual values. The overwhelmingly most common application of > numerology is to reduce words or dates (comples numbers) to a single > digit (or occasionally, as tyagi nagasiva noted, to the numerals 1 - 9 > plus 10, 11, and 22). This is done by a process called "involution." This is the most common sort of numerology, to be sure. You may note that this reduction process, along with other number-cooking methods, are used arbitrarily in many gematria calculations, whenever you need to make the numbers fit a pattern you have in mind. A quick look at Crowley's essay on gematria in the Equinox, reprinted in The Qabalah of Aleister Crowley, shows his use of a liberal dose of both additive and multiplicative factoring, applied pretty much at whim, to get the numbers to say what he wants them to. > Gematria, on the other hand, seeks to find links between otherwise > unrelated WORDS and uses numbers merely as a decoding key. The numbers > themselves have no inherent value except insofar as certain Very > Important Words (e.g. deity names) bear those numbers. Typically, also, > gemnatria does not seek to "reduce" long numbers to a single digit, but > will work with numbers up to at leasdt 4 digits, creating thereby an > expanded symbolic set of at least 9,999 "flavours" of meaning. The assumption of gematria is that all words which share a given number also share an inner meaning. In fact, any two words, if persistently contemplated with an intent to find it, will yield that commonality. The number itself is of no importance at all. It's a brain trick, a rationalization for creating patterns of association that didn't exist before. This is a magical application of numerology. It has validity as a meditative device, but it reveals no more inner reality than any other rationalization. The attempt to "prove" the validity of some belief based upon the gematria of a bunch of words and letters that Crowley spewed onto a page is similar to insisting that a Rorschach inkblot is really a picture of your mother because that's what you choose to see when you look at it.
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