THE ARCANE ARCHIVE
	a cache of usenet and other text files pertaining to occult, mystical, and spiritual subjects.

To: alt.chinese.fengshui
From: syho (syho@speednet.net)
Subject: I Ching History Discussed in Usenet
Date: 1998/05/02 

On Sat, 02 May 1998 05:37:46 -0500, Tim Goodwin 
wrote:
> syho wrote:
> > "Yi"/ "Zhou Yi", was named "Lian Shan" on the period "Xia Dynasty",
> > and named "Gui Zong" on the period "Shang Dynasty." So, how come 8
> > Trigrams (Gua) and/or 64 Hexagrams (double trigrams) derives from
> > Yi Jing/I Ching/Zhou Yi.
> 
> Very little is known about Lien Shan/Lian Shan (Manifestation of Change
> in the Mountains) and Gui Zong/Kuei Tsang (Flow and Return to Womb and
> Tomb).  I consider them 'lost books' of the I Ching.   However, some
> things are known.  The Lien Shan/Lian Shan began with 001001 and the Gui
> Zong/Kuei Tsang began with 000000 (all yin).   So it is clear they used
> the same basic symbol system as Zhou Yi/Chou I (which begins with
> 111111).  The symbol system is based on 1's & 0's representing *change*
> (i.e. difference).  All three are "Books of Change".  No? Also...  I
> don't think that Chou I = I Ching.  The Mawangdui text is considered an
> I Ching text and it's from the Han dynasty.  It's sequence is very
> different that the Chou I text.  Also, as I understand it, Fu Hsi,  the
> legendary first emperor of China, is considered the father of the Hsien
> Tien arrangement of trigrams.  As such he is considered the first great
> contributor to the body of the I Ching.  This was surely before the Chou
> I version.

Very little is known? You know much more than those so-called "Feng Shui
professional/masters". Lian Shan and Gui Zhong are not books' name. No one
knows what the exact meaning of Lian Shan and Gui Zhong are. Those three are
based on same basic hypothesis - "Changing". Zhou people named it Yi. Later
generations names it Zhou Yi to distinguish it from Lian Shan and Gui Zhong.
Refer to excavations, Hexagrams existed on the period of Shang already, and
those hexagrams are formed with a series of numbers, for example 787676.
Please try to find more information.



From: syho (syho@speednet.net)
Date: 1998/04/27 

On Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:57:31 +0200, Anton  wrote:
> syho wrote:
> > We know that the number 6 and 7 are signified by Metal element. Why bells
> > and wind chimes signified by the number 6, not the number 7?
> 
> I've always thought that Metal element is represented by 4 and 9, and that's
> according to I-Ching?
> --

Many people think that all Five-elements, 10 Stems, 12 Branches, Lo Shu, He
Tu and Trigrams derive from I-Ching. No!

I Ching is just a divination guide book. Please take a look at I Ching. I
really hope that you can find all Five-elements, 10 Stems, 12 Branches, Lo
Shu and  He Tu out from I-Ching.

Yes, you are right, the combination "4 AND 9"  represents Metal.
The combination "1 AND 6"  represents Water.
The combination "2 AND 7"  represents Fire.
The combination "3 AND 8"  represents Wood.
The above combinations derives from He Tu. We always use the above
information on Feng Shui.

For Luo Shu,
The five-element attribution of 1 is Water, 2 is Earth, 3 is Wood, 4 is
Wood, 5 is Earth, 6 is Metal, 7 is Metal, 8 is Earth, 9 is Fire.



"Yi"/ "Zhou Yi", was named "Lian Shan" on the period "Xia Dynasty", and
named "Gui Zong" on the period "Shang Dynasty." So, how come 8 Trigrams
(Gua) and/or 64 Hexagrams (double trigrams) derives from Yi Jing/I
Ching/Zhou Yi.


Chapter 9 of Xi Ci Zhang-Section 1 mentions the procedure of divinaion.
"The number of Shi (a kind of grass) stalks for practice of divination
is 50. One is placed aside to represent Tai Ji, and only 49 are used
in diviation. The remains are divided into two heaps to represent
Heaven and Earth (Yin and Yang), One is then taken from the heap on
the right, and placed between the little finger of the left hand and
the next, that there may thus symblised the three powers (Heaven,
Earth and Human). The heaps on both sides are manipulated by fours to
represent the four seasons; and then the remainders are returned, and
placed between the two middle fingers of the left hand, to represent
the interealary month. In five years there are two intercalations, and
therefore there are two operations; and afterwards the whole process
is repeated.
The numbers of stalks required for Qian amount to 216; those for Kun
amount to 144. Together they are 360, corresponding to the days of the
year.
The numbers of stalks required for 64 Hexagrams amount to 11520,
corresponding to all things."

Refer to Suet Wen Jie Zi, the oldest dictionary of China, the Chinese word
Yi means "Sun and Moon", and is the emblem of "Yin and Yang." 

Refer to Huai Nan Zi , Shi Ji...., ancient Chinese divided a year into eight
periods of time, "eight sections", as two Zhi, two Fen, two Qi, two Bi. And
each section corresponds to a trigram.

                 Qian
              Dui    Xun
            Li           Kan
              Zhen   Gen
                  Kun


What do you think about "Trigram derive from Yi Jing/I ching" yet. Actually,
Trigrams and Yi derive from astronomical observation and the invention of
calendar. Like the Emperor's new clothes, only those cleverest so-called
Feng Shui professionals/masters/charlatan can find out 10 Stems, 12
Branches, 60 Jia Zi, Five-elements, He Tu, Luo Shu from Yi Jing/I Ching. I'm
sorry that I don't want to detail openly, and just give you the above hints.
Please find the truth by yourself.



To: alt.chinese.fengshui
From: Tim Goodwin (zenlink@worldnet.att.net)
Date: 1998/05/02 

syho wrote:
> "Yi"/ "Zhou Yi", was named "Lian Shan" on the period "Xia Dynasty",
> and named "Gui Zong" on the period "Shang Dynasty." So, how come 8
> Trigrams (Gua) and/or 64 Hexagrams (double trigrams) derives from
> Yi Jing/I Ching/Zhou Yi.

Very little is known about Lien Shan/Lian Shan (Manifestation of Change
in the Mountains) and Gui Zong/Kuei Tsang (Flow and Return to Womb and
Tomb).  I consider them 'lost books' of the I Ching.   However, some
things are known.  The Lien Shan/Lian Shan began with 001001 and the Gui
Zong/Kuei Tsang began with 000000 (all yin).   So it is clear they used
the same basic symbol system as Zhou Yi/Chou I (which begins with
111111).  The symbol system is based on 1's & 0's representing *change*
(i.e. difference).  All three are "Books of Change".  No?Also...  I
don't think that Chou I = I Ching.  The Mawangdui text is considered an
I Ching text and it's from the Han dynasty.  It's sequence is very
different that the Chou I text.  Also, as I understand it, Fu Hsi,  the
legendary first emperor of China, is considered the father of the Hsien
Tien arrangement of trigrams.  As such he is considered the first great
contributor to the body of the I Ching.  This was surely before the Chou
I version.

> Like the Emperor's new clothes, only those cleverest so-called
> Feng Shui professionals/masters/charlatan can find out 10 Stems, 12
> Branches, 60 Jia Zi, Five-elements, He Tu, Luo Shu from Yi Jing/I
> Ching. I'm
> sorry that I don't want to detail openly, and just give you the above
> hints.
> Please find the truth by yourself.

   It seems that the Five Elements /10 Stems / 12 Branches / 60 Jia Zi /
24 directions...  all derive from Ssu Hsiang.

Thanks for taking the time to respond Syho.

Tim



To: alt.chinese.fengshui
From: syho (syho@speednet.net)
Subject: Re: what about wind chimes? 
Date: 1998/05/02 

On Sat, 02 May 1998 05:37:46 -0500, Tim Goodwin 
wrote:
> syho wrote:
> > "Yi"/ "Zhou Yi", was named "Lian Shan" on the period "Xia Dynasty",
> > and named "Gui Zong" on the period "Shang Dynasty." So, how come 8
> > Trigrams (Gua) and/or 64 Hexagrams (double trigrams) derives from
> > Yi Jing/I Ching/Zhou Yi.
> 
> Very little is known about Lien Shan/Lian Shan (Manifestation of Change
> in the Mountains) and Gui Zong/Kuei Tsang (Flow and Return to Womb and
> Tomb).  I consider them 'lost books' of the I Ching.   However, some
> things are known.  The Lien Shan/Lian Shan began with 001001 and the
> Gui Zong/Kuei Tsang began with 000000 (all yin).   So it is clear they
> used the same basic symbol system as Zhou Yi/Chou I (which begins with
> 111111).  The symbol system is based on 1's & 0's representing *change*
> (i.e. difference).  All three are "Books of Change".  No?Also...
> I don't think that Chou I = I Ching.  The Mawangdui text is considered
> an I Ching text and it's from the Han dynasty.  It's sequence is very
> different that the Chou I text.  Also, as I understand it, Fu Hsi,  the
> legendary first emperor of China, is considered the father of the Hsien
> Tien arrangement of trigrams.  As such he is considered the first great
> contributor to the body of the I Ching.  This was surely before the
> Chou I version.

Very little is known? You know much more than those so-called "Feng Shui
professional/masters". Lian Shan and Gui Zhong are not books' name. No one
knows what the exact meaning of Lian Shan and Gui Zhong are. Those three are
based on same basic hypothesis - "Changing". Zhou people named it Yi. Later
generations names it Zhou Yi to distinguish it from Lian Shan and Gui Zhong.
Refer to excavations, Hexagrams existed on the period of Shang already, and
those hexagrams are formed with a series of numbers, for example 787676.
Please try to find more information.



To: alt.philosophy.taoism
From: MARTIN TAI (martin.tai@westonia.com)
Date: 1996/06/08 

-> kung fu tze may have tried explicating tao.  but i doubt it.
-> even so confucianism is really not something i would consider very
-> taoist.

   Confucius studied I-Ching when he was fifty.

   According to  Li Gi, there were three ancient texts
 Lian San, Gui Zang and I-Ching.

    Me Tse was derived from Lian San,  Lao Tse from Gui Zang
and Confucius from  I-Ching.

   The texts for both  Lian San and Gui Zang were lost.
   


To: alt.philosophy.taoism
From: MARTIN TAI (martin.tai@westonia.com)
Subject: Re: a few points about taoism 
Date: 1996/06/10 

Quoting Madellyn:

-> You are abosultely right - Confucianism is certainly NOT Taoism.  I
-> was simply saying that the earliest roots were similar.  The earliest
-> roots of Semetic religions are similar too - but they took VERY
-> different paths! Good Points - Madelynn

    You are right.
    According to ancient text, there were three versions of
I-Ching:  Lian San  of Xia Dynasty, Qui Zang of Sang Dynasty
and  I-Ching of  Chou Dynasty.
   Confucianism was rooted in I-Ching, The Taosim of Lao -Tse
from  Gui Zang, and  Me Tse rooted in Lian San.
   Gui Zang considered  the earth or Yin as the primary force of
nature, while for I-Ching, it was Yang.



To: alt.philosophy.taoism
From: lawrence day (lday@pathcom.com)
Subject: Re: patterns in the I-Ching 
Date: 2001-05-11 11:58:12 PST 

...

You can find the Ninth Wing (Hsu Kua) in the Bollingen version of the I-ching. 
It deals with the sequence but for some reason Richard Wilhelm divided it up and included it in the 
'appended commentary' (Book 3). It will be pretty hard to follow without first digesting the Eighth Wing 
(Shuo Kua) which deals with the 'sequence' of the trigrams. 
eg, 8.2: "In ancient times the holy sages made the Book of Changes thus:
Their purpose was to follow the order of their nature and of fate..."
So maybe it is not surprising that you find an 'underlying logic', in fact your own nature, 
literally determined by DNA, is also  based on 64 binary permutations.
The sequence of the hexagrams also played an inspirational role in the development of 
western calculus as Liebniz was at a dead end in his work on binary numbers
(because he was trying to go from small to large, and working with 0-63 rather than 1-64)
when a Jesuit back from China sent him an I-ching and a copy of Shao-yung's 
diagrams of the sequence. Liebniz lightbulb turned on, he shared with Newton and 
so we get 'Principia Mathematica', calculus, computers etc. According to Richard Wilhelm's son Helmut
in 'Change' (Bollingen, 1960, p. 90) "Shao Yung's schema has led to one of the most extraordinary 
episodes in the history of the human mind.."
Indeed. 
Shao Yung's branch of Taoism was called the 'School of Numbers and Symbols'
and a dictionary definition of calculus (Webster's) says it is a system of calculation 
based on numbers and symbols. (The symbols are 'kua'/trigrams/binary triplets).
Like Newton, Shao Yung figured that there was an 'underlying logic' to reality
and a useful formula: Nature plus Principle produces Fate.
He figured this out in the 11th century but it was 600 years later that Liebniz and Newton digested it.
Weird eh?
Here's something weirder: the diagram you posted is hanging on my wall.
I had, back in my youth, an 8x8 cloth chessboard--well one side was cloth and the other sponge.
I played a lot of chess and the sponge gradually wore off leaving wee bits all over the world, 
while the cloth gradually gave way on the well-used squares.
Sometime early 70's I retired it, hung it on the wall and filled in the squares with the 
appropriate hexagrams. I meditated on it a lot. The acid was better then. My room was octagonal with 
hockey tape trigrams labelling the directions. It seemed normal that a letter arrived from a Yugoslav 
mathmatician historian doing research in  China on old Tang-dynasty documents who claimed the 
original moves of the chess pieces had been derived from the 8x8 magic square..

Now it is 30ish years later, I've moved a dozen times, but it is still on the wall..

ramblin',
--lawrenc
----
Posted via http://www.etin.com - the FREE public USENET portal on the Web
Complete SEARCHING, BROWSING, and POSTING of text and BINARY messages!



From: Joe Bernstein (joe@sfbooks.com)
Subject: Re: Chinese History & Lao Tzu 
Newsgroups: soc.history.ancient
Date: 1997/02/22 

Newsgroups line trimmed.

I'm forwarding the comments of a sinologist who doesn't have time to learn
how to use Usenet just now...

In article , I wrote:

>In article <1997Feb13.191033.24290@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu>,
>sjcma@eecg.toronto.edu (Ma) wrote:
>
>>I don't seem to see anything on Chinese history.  So I thought that
>>I'd start something with a question.
>>
>>In reading history books, one has Lao Tzu's (apparent author of I-Ching,
>>and Tao Te Ching) real identity as "Li Er" and the other "Lao Dan".
>>So which one is it?!
>
>Um, um...
>
>In the last few books I looked at, they were falling all over each other to
>conclude that Laozi didn't exist at all.
>
>I *certainly* had not heard of him as an author of the .  That
>book, for starters, is one of the Confucian Classics; traditional
>(Confucian) history ascribes most of the major pieces of it to various
>quite ancient sages (someone prior to Yao; also the Duke of Zhou and his
>conquering brother...)  We're talking before 1000 BC here.
>
>I do gather there are plenty of Taoist commentaries on the , and
>it's plausible that one or more is ascribed to Laozi.
>
>Meanwhile, the allegation is routinely made, and has I think gathered some
>force with recent finds at Mawangdui (sp?), that the  is a
>compilation of mixed authorship, and that Laozi may well be imaginary. 
>Beats me why this is happening *now*, I thought the big era of assuming
>legendary people never lived was fifty years ago, but if you look at recent
>translations of Taoist texts or discussions of ancient Chinese literature
>you'll often find claims that Chuangzi is the first Taoist writer we can be
>confident existed...

Joe,
        Herewith a note in response to a question in your Group on Laudz, 
to forward if you think helpful. It is based on my own re-examination of 
the evidence, and is thus not a "standard" opinion.
        Laudz was vigorously mythologized already in the Warring States 
period, and by Han (as reflected in the Shr Ji) he was being credited
 with great longevity; this continued in later centuries when he was 
givenn credit for other texts and for a hand in other works of mystical 
appeal, such as the Yi Jing. There is no reason to credit any of these 
late myths.
        The apparent factual core beneath the myths, preserved along with 
an early form of the myths in th Shr Ji, is that Lau Dan's real surname 
was Li (Lau means "Old"), and was claimed as an ancestor by a Li family 
in Han times; the genealogy they give, when adjusted for exaggerated 
expansion, places him in the late 04th and early 03rd centuries (4th and 
3rd BC, respectively, but BC is culturally parochial, and the prefixed 0 
is my recommendation for neutralizing it). Independently, the Dau/Dv Jing 
text seems to have formed by accumulation, in Lu, over about a century 
between the middle of the 04c and the middle of the 03c. This would put 
the historical Lau (or Li) Dan contemporary with the middle of that 
process, and in fact there is a zone within the DDJ that implies a 
personal character - an approach to problems - which is not inconsistent 
with the traits for which Lau Dan is criticized (sic) in the earliest 
reference to him in the Jwangdz. All in all, these data, each the 
earliest of their type, converge in suggesting that Lau Dan was head of 
the group that compiled the DDJ, during its middle period, late 04c/early 
03c. In later strata of the Jwangdz, he is recognized as a sort of 
emblematic leader of what might call various groups of Dauists; this is 
the beginning of the myth process. It does show that Laudz is in general 
earlier than the bulk of the Jwangdz text. I don't  see that the recent 
opinion that the Jwangdz text is earlier than the DDJ can be sustained. 
The two did overlap a little in their respective processes of 
compilation, which were gradual in both cases, so that the EARLIEST bits 
of Jwangdz are earlier than the LATEST or mid-o3c chapters of the DDJ, 
but that is as far as the evidence seems to allow one to go.
        As to the Yi Jing itself, that too has been mythologized. It was 
not originally a Confucian work (the Analects disapproves of it, for one 
thing), and only gradually made its way into the Confucian canon in Han, 
when interest in all sorts of mysterious cosmic processes was intense. It 
remains to this day somewhat heretical within Confucianism, as is well 
described in Hellmut Wilhelm's book entitled Change.
        Part of the Yi myth is its association with the Jou Dynasty, or 
even with earlier periods. That seems not to hold up. No Jou inscriptions 
mention in, from archaeology we know that the historical Jou continued to 
use Shang-type bone divination, and even the (largely invented) classics 
such as the Shr (Poetry) show bone divination in use by the Jou founders. 
There is no dependable or unambiguous to the book until the middle of the 
04c. As it happens, a transmission-genealogy of the Yi which is also 
preserved in the Shr Ji gives a beginning-point in about the middle of 
the 04c. Again, the two strands of best early evidence converge.
        These two results actually put the formation of the Yi much 
closer to, but still a little earlier than, the lifetime of Lau Dan. It 
still wouldn't work to credit him with that compilation (25 years too 
early is still too early), or even with a commentary on it (the key 
concepts do not appear in the section of the DDJ which other evidence 
makes it likely that he wrote). So the possibility reappears, only to be 
rejected again.
        I hope that the era of assuming that legendary people never lived 
is a permanent era: by definition legendary people never lived. Lau Dan 
is a LEGENDARIZED real person, and not a complete invention. The real 
person can be tracked down, or at least there is always a theoretical 
hope of doing so. Some of the other stuff dreamed up by the 03c 
mythmakers, though of course the concept comes from somewhere, cannot be 
attached to any very probable historical core reality. 
        Hope this may be of some help.
                E Bruce Brooks
                Warring States Project
                University of Massachusetts at AMherst
                brooks@asianlan.umass.edu

12:27 PM Fri 14 Feb 97



From: lday@pathcom.com (lday@pathcom.com)
 Subject: Re: I Ching 
 To: alt.philosophy.taoism
 Date: 1998/08/13 


In article <1ddoj2v.1c2lzpra5p2tpN@94.145.dialin.mxs.nl>,
  joscan@globalxs.nl (musician) wrote:
>  wrote:
>
> > The book has been compared to a mirror. Crafting a good question is an
> > interesting exercise. Trying to form an 8-word question, then to read it thru
> > with the emphasis on the first word 8 times, the second 8 times etc., up to 64
> > repetitions is an old and powerful ritual. Sometimes having a clear grasp of
> > what it is you want to know is as valuable as any answer it could provide.
> >
> > --lawrence
>
> I am curious to here your thoughts on the relationship between the 8's
> of the I Ching and the 8's of our present day computer system
> (archetypes?....)
>
> --
> musician
>
> ps - oops.......just read the other post about thinking in english and
> french and binary. I was gonna say binary in this question two ;-),  but
> I thought I was wrong cause so much music software is based on 8, but it
> is binary isn't it? Well, even though I asked the question all wrong I'm
> still looking forward to your reply
>

I'm not quite sure about what the Q was, but I love to babble about binary!
Yes it runs the computer, just on and off making all these other
complexities. It also runs the DNA, our own coding is just 64 patterns and
their interelations. Well, these useful patterns keep repeating, eg, two
parents, four grandparents, 8 great grandparents, etc doubling every
generation, the dna inside-out.. Chess has its 64 (8 x 8) squares, I Ching
has its 64 hexagrams. Back in 1689 Leibniz was trying to use numbers to make
a mathematical proof of god--he didn't get very far of course, but he did
start to work in binary. Then, in one magical historical moment what does he
get in the mail from China but Shao-yung's binary cosmology diagrams, and an
I-ching. The Jesuit Bouvet guessed he might be interested! One telling
difference was that Leibniz, as a Western-style thinker, was trying to add up
a bunch of little things to make One 'everything' (his god) while Shao-yung
had it completely reversed, starting with Tao and dividing it equally six
times (4 walls,floor,ceiling) to arrive at binary reality. So Shao-yung's
sequence was identical to Leibniz's except reversed like a mirror image. Once
Western thought had absorbed the I-ching it quickly 'invented' calculus.
Whether Newton and Leibniz collaborated or ran parallel is 'secret' history,
for those were dangerous times, but what is 'calculus'? Webster says: (a) a
method of calculation. (b) the use of symbols (c) a method of analysis. An
old adage says 'when the student is ready, the teacher appears'. This seems
to be the case with Shao-yung's arrival in Europe, even though he had been
dead for 700 years! The Jesuits, incidentally, got to explore the I-ching for
50 years before the Pope figured out what it was and, of course, banned it.
As for music, I'm not sure about the mathematics of harmony. Pythagoras
studied 'the music of the spheres' but that would be with the 10-based
(fingers!) system of Egypt. John Cage wrote some music based entirely on
I-ching readings, but I haven't heard it.

regards,
--lawrence


From: Y.K. Law (yklaw@hkstar.com)
 Subject: An Intro to I-ching & TCM 
 Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative, An, Intro,
 misc.health.alternative, alt.folklore.herbs
 Date: 1998/09/19 


I have read postings in you NG and widened my understanding in western
herbs for which I must express my gratitude.  However, I found most
people do not have an idea of what I-ching and TCM is about.  Hope that
the following information can help a little.


AN INTRODUCTION TO I-CHING  AND TRADITIONAL CHINESE MEDICINE


I-CHING?-HOW IT STARTED

About 3,000 years ago, there are some wise people who observe phenomena
in Nature; making use of some tree branches - long and short ones,
inventing symbols of Yin and Yang which represent a pair of
differentiated nature. The symbol of Yin is  "- -"? and Yang is  " - " .

They understand that tree branches are tree branches no matter how it
looks.  So there developed another concept named Tai-chi  (meaning Large
and Centre), in which Yin and Yang are embraced.  In the Supplementary
note of I-Ching there is a relevant section reading  The Way (Tao) is
One.Yin and One.Yang?.

                                                            Yang
Tao  (The Way)  :   Tai-Chi  (One)   {
                                                             Yin

In which  Tai-Chi (One) can be referred to anything: as large as nature;
as small as dust.  Anything can be regarded as a Tai-chi, this also
includes the ones that had been denoted as Yin and Yang earlier.   And
this  elaborated to the Four Diagrams?  (Yin.Yin; Yin.Yang; Yang .Yin;
and Yang.Yang)  and the Eight Diagrams? in which some natural phenomena
or environment which affects the living of  human being are matched
with.  The Eight factors are The Sky or The Sun; The Ground or The
Earth; Earthquake; Wind; Water; Fire; Mountain; Pools & Ponds.  The
first four factors are considered large and far from the human control,
whereas the latter four factors are relatively smaller and closer and
they affects the activities of human being.

Tai-chi: Yin Yang? is the basic concept and the fundamental framework of
I-Ching? meaning The Book of Change?.


I-CHING AND TRADITIONAL CHINESE MEDICINE

The theory of I-Ching itself is nothing superstitious, although some
people are making use of the Book as the fundamental framework of their
theories for Fortune Telling or other interesting area.   Just like
different things are embraced in Nature and it is no wonder.   I-Ching
is the oldest philosophy book in China and had a great impact to the
theories in philosophy and applications afterward.   Moreover the
framework of
I-Ching is so simple.  The simplicity itself helps to generalise
comprehensively most natural phenomena and human activity.  As we found
in the Supplementary Notes of I-Ching again   ? I-Ching  is so easy and
so simple but it induce all the details of Nature?.

Among different learning,  Medicine is one of the most important and is
closely related to our daily life. According to the  Tai-chi :
Yin.Yang?   framework, our life can be differentiate to two different
main area Mind? and Body?.  To maintain the Health of Life, we need to
maintain the fitness for both of them.  We need learnings to regulate us
how to keep our Mind? and Body? fit and they are Philosophy? for our
Mind? (Yang)  and Medicine? for our Body? (Yin).   Traditional Chinese
Medicine,  is developed with this theory underminded, and that is why we
had to refer  to I-Ching? when we talk about Traditional Chinese
Medicine.

Another historical reason is that, in ancient time, frequently the
people who study theory of  Medicine are also the people who study
Philosophy (Seeking Tao).  They are called Taoist?. They make their
living sometimes by Imperial Subsidies and sometimes by consulting
patients.  Their main objective in Philosophy is Seeking Tao (The Way)
and the best proof of its correctness is to stay healthily alive
forever?.

That is why so often when we encounter some problems in the theory of
Chinese Medicine.  We can find our answer of solution in the theory of
I-Ching.


"TAI-CHI: YIN YANG?

As we have mentioned above, that Nature can be referred to as Tai-Chi,
this chinese words means Large and Centre. In which the word Large
refers to outside environment and Centre refers to the entity itself.
That means each Tai -chi keep in touch with the outside enviroment and
is fed by or feed back to outside and each Tai-chi contains the factor
of internal factor (Yin) and external factor (Yang) by itself.  That is
why Tai-chi can derive to Yin and Yang.

Now you might want  to have more understanding of Yin and Yang.
Acccording to their nature.  Yin and Yang can be seen when there are
comparisons  (relativity).  It is interesting to point out again that
Yin or Yang are not in absolute nature but are defined on a matter of
degree. How large is Large and how small Is Small?   It depends on the
comparison with a standard.   Whether a direction is Going Out or Coming
in depends on  where you stand and how you look at it.  However, Yin and
Yang can still be separate in a general sense according to normal
criteria.

Yang : abstract;   far;  unstable;  large;    external;    heat;
rise;  superficies;   asthenia syndrome,   etc.
Yin : concrete;   near ;   stable;   small;   internal;   cold;
fall;      interior;      sthenia syndrome,  etc.


YIN YANG IN OUR BODY

In our body, there are Yin and Yang too. Normally Yin refers to the
liquid and substance inside (including  blood and all kinds of body
fluid) and Yang refers to the vital energy, body heat and functions.
Traditional Chinese Medicine maintain and remedy the health of our body
by means of maintaining the balance of Yin and Yang within our body.
First we need to identify  in which internal organs the unbalance takes
place and in which way do they  lose the balance.  When we know their
status, we can use correspondent methods or medicine to retain their
original balance.


THE FOUR METHODS OF EXAMINATION

In order to identify the balance of Yin and Yang in our body, we needs
some methods of examination.  The traditional ways are called The Four
Methods of Examination namely: Observation; Listening and Smelling;
Inquiring;  Pulse Feeling and Palpation. In order to avoid  misjudgement
we need to exercise a Comprehensive analysis for all the foundings
obtained by the above mentioned methods, not one or two. Indeed,  there
are more examination methods coming out, but the basic rule are the
same.  Finding out the standard; comparing the diviation with the
standard and identify which end is Yin and which end is Yang.  The Four
Methods of Examination are just the beginning.


THE EIGHT PRINCIPAL SYNDROMES

In our foundings based on our Examination, there are Eight Principal
Syndromes; Yin and Yang; Superficies and Interior; Cold and Heat;
Sthenia and Asthenia.    Indeed you can add more when you see it. Just
like cutting an apple or an orange, a pair of new different appearance
will show up when you cut them in different angles.


ABOUT THE WRITER
Mr. Law, Yiu-Kwong (Y.K. Law) was born and receive his education in Hong
Kong.  In 1981, Mr Law first met his teacher Mr. Wong, Pak-Ling when he
was giving a talk on the Application of I-Ching on the Phylosophies of
Ancient Saints (Wisemen)? in Hong Kong City Hall.  After the talk, Mr.
Law had a brand new recognition on I-Ching and decided to follow Mr.
Wong and start learning I-Ching, traditional Chinese Philosophy and
Chinese Medicine from him.

Best Regards
Y.K. Law


To: alt.chinese.fengshui
From: Robert Matusan - Boyler (boyler@usa.net)
Date: 2001-07-22 07:10:05 PST 

Hi syho,

> ...you still have not gave us any solid arguments, multitude and
> seclusion have no relationship to *seeking worthies*.

I have been unable to find the book you quoted from. Is it in English?
Anyway, if I remember clearly we were discussing excerpt from Wilhelm's
translation from the judgment of hexagram 2, and there is no mention of
*seeking worthies*.

Then again, if trigram attributes are not solid arguments enough, may I ask
you what do you think the words of ("Yijing") text are derived from? BTW
what is the position (direction) of Kun? Isn't it southwest (therefore
favorable in context of the hexagram)? And what is its opposite? Isn't it
Gen, northeast (therefore unfavorable in context of the hexagram)? Can't you
read "Yijing" from numbers and images? Do you remember what Wang Bi has said
about it:

"Images are the means to express ideas. Words are the means to explain the
images. To yield up ideas completely, there is nothing better than the
images, to yield up the meaning of the images, there is nothing better than
words. The words are generated by the images, thus one can ponder the words
and so observe what the images are. The images are generated by ideas, thus
one can ponder the images and so observe what the ideas are. The ideas are
yielded up completely by the images, and images are made explicit by the
words. Thus, since the words are the means to explain images, once one gets
the images, he forgets the words, and since the images are means to allow us

to concentrate on the ideas, once one gets the ideas, he forgets the images.
Similarly, 'the rabbit snare exists for the sake of the rabbit; once one
gets the rabbit, he forgets the snare. And the fish trap exist for sake of
fish; once one gets the fish, he forgets the trap.' If this is so, the words
are snares for the images, and images are traps for the ideas.
    Therefore someone who stays fixed on the words will not be one to get
the images, and someone who stays fixes on the images will not be one to get
the ideas. The images are generated by the ideas, but if one stays fixed on
the images themselves, then what he stays fixed on will not be images as we
mean them here. The words are generated by the images, but if one stays
fixed on the words themselves, then what he stays fixed on will not be words
as we mean them here. If this is so, then someone who forgets the images
will be the one to get the ideas, and someone who forgets the words will be
one to get the images. Getting the ideas is in fact a matter of forgetting
the images, and getting the images is in fact a matter of forgetting the
words. Thus, although the images were established in order to yield up ideas
completely, as images they may be forgotten. Although the number of strokes
were doubled in order to yield um all innate tendencies of things, as
strokes they may be forgotten..."

> maybe you have to study how to interpret yijing by yin-yang hypothesis with
> your friend although he might wrongly associate *from west to south* and
> *from east to north" with luoshu.
>
> a yi scholars said that in diagram of 12 monthly hexagrams yang increase
> from west to south and yang decreases from east to north. .....

Where did you hear that? Could you give me/us a source of this information
or at least an explanation. As much as I know of seasons and their
interpretation by yinyang hypotheses, above statement in not clear to me.

Here is how it goes:
East is connected with spring, south with summer, west with autumn, and
north with winter.

Only natural way seasons exchange with each other is above mentioned,
spring, summer, autumn, winter. I hope we could agree at least at that part.

For sake of better understanding let's try to apply yinyang hypothesis from
astronomical beginning of the year - the winter solstice. Winter solstice
denotes a middle of winter (north). This is the time when yin is most
abundant, but yang starts to grow. At spring equinox (middle of spring -
east) yang (still growing) is equal with yin, but yin retreats. At summer
solstice yang is at its peak and yin enters from below. This is the break of
the year. From this time on yang retreats, and yin advances. At autumn
equinox yin and yang are equal, but yin grows more stronger, and yang
retreats. And finally we came again to next winter solstice, when yin is at
its peak.

You can find it if you read "Guanzi", "Taixuanjing", etc., or even if you
look at Shao Yong's circular arrangement.

Then again this is not the subject we are discussing.

> by the way, smartalec, quoting from Edward L. Shaughnessy's book does not
> mean that i like the book most. i disagree on parts of his translation. but,
> not like you, i don't point out scholars' "mistakes" without giving any
> solid arguments.

How considerate from you. How about not pointing out fengshui masters
"mistakes" without giving any solid arguments :o) ?

--
Wansui!
Boyler



To: alt.divination
From: capstone@javanet.com (capstone@javanet.com)
Subject: Re: YJ translations: survey says... 
Date: 2000/04/23 

> From: Lare/Mo Lei-Li 2š 1p 2z  
> [To:] alt.divination
> Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 04:12:03 GMT
> Subject: YJ translations:  survey says...
> 
> Soliciting comments about Yi Jing translations.  (Let's exclude the
> old standards like Wilhelm/Baynes, Legge, and Blofeld.)
> 
> When I first learned of the oracle, I used Wing's _Workbook_.  Good
> intro -- but entirely explanation / commentary.  Eventually I added
> Ritsema & Karcher as a linguistic backup.
> 
> As I became more familiar with the YJ, I found I liked Sorrell &
> Sorrell -- some original (Confucian) text wrapped in a disguise of
> utter readability.  Eventually I added Gregory Richter's interlinear
> translation as a linguistic source.
> 
> Last week I checked out Whincup from the Library.  Found him very
> comfortable -- a little traditional, but not intimidated by the
> Confucian tradition.  Today in Barnes & Nobles' coffeeshop I cast my
> first reading with Whincup (and three pennies).  I went straight
> upstairs and purchased my own copy.  I think it will be my "home base"
> now, with Richter for final word.
> 
> How 'bout you guys?

On this matter of translations, I would suggest we consider what text is
being translated (if any).  For example, a very simple typology might divide
translations into four categories according to their textual roots:

(1) The Zhouyi group.  These translations are reconstructions of the
"original" divination texts used by the Zhou.  They include works by Richard
Kunst, Kerson and Rosemary Huang, Martin Palmer/Jay Ramsay/Zhao Xiaomin, and
others.  These translations never include the later Ten Wings.

(2) The Silk Manuscript group.  These are based on the text found in Tomb
No. 3 at Mawangdui in 1973.  Edward Shaughnessey has given us a full
translation (including 5 previously unknown "wings"), but other newer
translations claim to incorporate textual features of the Silk version, such
as those by Liu Dayjun/Lin Zhonggjun/Fu Youde/Frank Lauran (all connected to
one translation) and Chan Chiu Ming.

(3) The classical Yijing.  This is the book that became one of the Confucian
Five Classics and influenced Chinese culture profoundly for almost 2000
years.  Until recently, it has been the one and only Yijing, and it's
history can be divided into many phases. This is the text of Legge, Wilhelm,
Blofeld, and probably nine out ten others translators including Richard
Lynn, Thomas Cleary (in all his variations), and everybody's new favorite
(except for me), Alfred Huang.  One important feature of the classical
Yijing is the Ten Wings.  The impact of these writings on the traditional
understanding of the Yijing cannot be overemphasized.

(4) The modern I Ching.  These recent Western versions are mainly
paraphrases, renditions, or interpretations of earlier translations (esp.
Legge and Wilhelm) of the classical Yijing, but their authors are not really
familiar with the Chinese text.  There are dozens of these books.  Every
year five or six are published. It would take a lot of work to do justice to
this category.

Anyway, these four categories of translations do not necessarily overlap.
So a divination using Edward Shaughnessy (Category 2) is going to get a very
different answer from that using Carol Anthony or Sam Reifler or Rowena
Pattee (Category 4).  Which one is the real I Ching?  My answer: this one.




To: alt.divination
From: capstone@javanet.com (capstone@javanet.com)
Subject: Re: YJ translations: survey says... 
Date: 2000/04/30 

A word about the "complete" Yijing.  There is in fact a canonical Yijing, a
text most Chinese have considered definitive for 2000 years.  This text
includes the following elements:

1.  The hexagram six-line figure (gua).
2.  The hexagram name (guaming).
3.  The hexagram text or judgment (guaci).
4.  The line texts for each line (yaoci).
5.  The commentary on the hexagram texts (tuanzhuan).
6.  The commentary on the images of the hexagram texts (xiangzhuang).
7.  The commentary on the line texts (also xiangzhuan).
8.  Textual commentary on the hexagram and line texts of Hexagrams 1 and 2
(wenyan).
9.  The so-called Great Commentary in 2 parts (dazhuan).
10. The essay on the meaning of the eight trigrams (shuogua).
11. The essay on the meaning of the hexagram sequence (xugua).
12. The mnemonic list of hexagrams and their short meanings (zagua).

A "complete" translation of the classical Yijing should include all of these
elements.  However, I believe there are only four English translations made
within the past hundred years or so that are in fact complete:  Legge,
Wilhelm/Baynes, Wu Jing-Nuan, and Richard John Lynn.



To: alt.chinese.fengshui
From: tortoise@uswest.net (tortoise@uswest.net)
Subject: Re: To beginners 
Date: 1998/10/04 


For those that are interested...  The book that Richard Rutt wrote is called,
Zhouyi: The Book of Changes, Curzon Press, 1996.  Rutt is a highly
distinguished sinologist and linguist.  Sino-Tibetan sinologist Richard Cook
from the University of California at Berkeley can't say enough about the
impecability of Rutt's work.  I feel the same way.  It is an *excellent* work
on the historical foundations of the Yijing (Zhouyi).  Only a small portion of
the book consists of the actual translation of the Zhouyi (c850 BCE).  The
rest is a fine treatment of historical context, the work of various other
researchers and the best Ten Wings translation and commentary I have read to
date.  It is well worth the $65.  Contact the University of Hawaii Press.

Cate wrote:

> ...
>
> Tim, have you been keeping up with Stephen Field's work or that of other
> sinologists who have been more interdisciplinary? Hmm?

"More interdisciplinary"?  Than who?  Who are you comparing?  Are you even
familiar with author and work I mentioned?  I'm familiar with Stephen Field's
area of research.  His primary background is in translating ancient Chinese
poetry and more recently he has been pursuing research into the origins of
Feng Shui and the Yijing.  His resume is impressive and much of his work is a
part of a (growing) list of about 600 books and papers that I am in the
process of obtaining (it takes time...).  There's a tremendous amount of
material out there....

...I'm not here to defend Richard Rutt's work.
He doesn't need it.  Because I chose to quote one small blurb does not mean
that's all the book has to offer   The book was only published two years
ago.  A lot can happen in two years, but it is certainly up to date in the
published Yijing world.

Okay, so the rest of the post is the work of Stephen Field.  Everything that I
have read of his (including the following), I have enjoyed tremendously.  I
have quoted him in essays and have no major issues with anything that he has
put forth.

> >>I also wanted to ask if you are familiar with the discovery by Zhang
> Zhenglang in 1980 that the original hexagrams were not the six-line
> graphs we are familiar with today.

Not to be picky, but these discoveries were first presented at a conference on
paleography at Zhilin University at the end of 1978.  At this conference Zhang
Zhenglang proposed a theory that the symbols were hexagrams ("hexagram number
signs").

> But Zhang realized that
> some of the symbols were accompanied by the names of various hexagrams,
> and began to ponder if these were indeed ancient hexagrams (and
> trigrams).

I have not seen any translations of the conference lectures... but as I
understand it, Zhang focused on the six line figures, not the three line
figures.  The fact that these ancient glyphs may have been hexagrams was a big
deal in itself...  After all, he was presenting this theory for the first
time.

> The symbols were oriented vertically, and were made up either
> three or six pieces, chosen from a pool of five separate graphs. The
> five graphs were (1) a horizontal line, (2) an hourglass (sometimes on
> its side), (3) a roof-top (upside-down V), (4) a cross, and (5) two
> opposed arcs (forming a bottleneck).

For those who have not seen these images... this is a great description.
These are known as 'bagua shuzi fuhao' or "hexagram number signs".  Keep in
mind that the 'cross', 'hourglass', 'roof-top' and 'opposing arcs' were
somewhat stretched out in a horizontal fashion.  The glyphs truly look like
hexagrams from a short distance or with a blurred focus.  They are beautiful.
(I have only seen images that were taken from Chang Cheng-lang 1980-81 and
Zhang Yachu & Liu Yu 1982)  In the images that I have seen (from Shang bone,
shell & ceramic as well as Zhou bronze and bone) the 'cross', 'hour glass' &
'horizontal line' are precursors to the modern solid / yang line.  The 'roof
-top', 'V-shape*' and 'opposing arcs' were a precursor to the modern open /
yin line.

* Dr. Fielding left out a rightside-up V-shape that was used in some Zhou
bronze inscriptions (a simple over-sight to be sure)

> Zhang figured out that these were
> the numerals 1, 5, 6, 7, and 8. The absence of the numerals 2 through 4
> is owing to their similarity with the numeral 1 (2, 3, and 4 horizontal
> lines, respectively), and the confusion which would have resulted had
> they been stacked together in succession. A statistical accounting of
> the frequency of different numerals in the 168 records of such symbols
> suggested that the numbers 2 and 4 had been subsumed by the graph for 6,
> and the number 3 had been subsumed by the graph for 1. He theorized that
> eventually all odd numbers were represented by 1 and all even numbers by
> 6, and these two symbols--the horizontal line and the "roof-top"--became
> the solid and broken lines of the trigrams as we know them.

This is great!  This makes a lot of sense.  It's curious as to how the
different symbols were simplified into the lines we know today.  Though, there
are still a lot of gaps in the progression to the classical lines...  It seems
that there is still some strong evidence that the 'opposing arcs' of the bagua
shuzi fuhao somehow made their way into the Han Dynasty.  The Mawangdui silk
manuscript (the oldest complete text of the Yijing we have) included a
beautiful way of notating the open / yin lines.  They are rendered much like
the 'opposing arcs', but more like opposing L's on their side.  For example,
hexagram 5 (6 in the 'King Wen' sequence) was rendered something like:

_____________
_____________
_____________
____|   |____
_____________
____|   |____


> We can also assume that the trigrams formed of solid and broken
> lines did not exist in King Wen's time, much less in the time of the
> legendary Fuxi.

Definitely!

> All we do know is that there existed a form of
> numerological divination in which three-term and six-term sequences of
> odd and even numbers had oracular significance.

Yes.  Though... the earliest reliable dates we have for these numerals come
from the reign of Wuding (c1238-1180 BCE).  It wasn't until the Zhou Dynasty
that groups of three were found.  This is why, in response to Cate's amazing
16,500 BCE date for the origin of the Bagua, I said, "According to my
research, your date is about 16,000 years off target (** at best, it is about
14,000 -14,500 years off**)... I was still being liberal in my estimate, which
puts us in the same time period (even a bit earlier) as the "hexagram number
signs" that Stephen Fielding has mentioned.

> The xiang or bigrams
> that you speak of were the product of the fertile minds of the end of
> the Warring States period and the beginning of the Han dynasty.

True, true... And it wasn't until the Song Dynasty (10th and 11th centuries)
that the glyphs as we know them (double lines in the context of binomial
expansion) were developed by Shao Yung (Zhao Kang Jie).

> >>My intention is to show how the elemental (phasic) interpretation of the
> cosmos in terms of natural law (yinyang/wuxing) was quite late in the
> tradition.  This includes such notions as direction, season, and perhaps
> even astronomy/astrology.

Philosophically, yes.  Though I am curious as to how other research fits into
this view.  In Vol. 18.2 of Linguistics of the Tibeto-Burman Area (Etymology
of Chinese Chen), Richard Cook of UC Berkeley proposes a theory that Chen (the
fifth character of the Dizhi) actually depicted a scorpion posed to strike
(which makes sense considering the connotations of shock that the character
has had in Yijing history).  Further, he asserts that the character was used
in astronomical contexts relating to the ancient equatorial position of the
star Antares in the Breast of the Celestial Scorpion.  He does not claim a
Sino-Mesopotamian relation, but he posits an *ancient* connection to
astronomical sciences to be sure...  This more than suggests a connection
between the cyclic phases of the calendar system (which many have suggested
forms a partial basis of elemental philosophy) and astronomical observations.

>  I have just written an article proving that
> the fengshui auspice generally assumed to derive from five phase
> interactions is instead based on the numerology of luoshu, hetu, and the
> two bagua configurations.

Thanks for posting this reference.  This looks very interesting.

Tim Goodwin



To: soc.history.ancient
From: Dajiang Liu (dajiang@Glue.umd.edu)
Subject: Re: Book of Silk 
Date: 1997/02/28 


On Thu, 27 Feb 1997, John Thatcher wrote:

> Does anyone have any information on the 'Book of Silk'?
> 
> The only info I have is that it was discovered in a tomb somewhere
> in 1973 (4th century BC - Chinese) and has a 5 foot ribbon that
> illustrates 29 forms of comets and associated disasters.
 
The book referred to was exhumed from the tomb of an official's family of
the Western Han dynasty (206 BC-8 AD).  Among the silk artifacts there are
embroideries and books written on silk (bo-shu).  The tomb is located at
Mawangdui, near Changsha, Hunan province.  It was discovered in 1972 and
was one of the most significant findings of the century.  Among the silk
books are the earliest copies (two of them) of the famed Dao-De-Jing (Tao
Te Ching). The illustration of the 29 forms of comets are believed to be
the earliest in the world.  The silk books unearthed at Mawangdui are a
miscellaneous collection of writings on philosophy, medicine, astrology,
etc.  They are mostly handwritten copies of older books.  Silk served as
the medium for writings and books mostly during the Western Han dynasty
are was replaced by paper which was invented in Eastern Han dynasty
(25-220 AD). Bamboo and wooden slips were the cheaper but more onerous
alternatives before paper was widely used. But Chinese artists still use
silk for paintings and calligraphies in later days. 

If you can read Chinese, there is a three volume book called "Mawangdui
Han mu bo shu".

[TEXT COPYRIGHT AUTHORS AS POSTED]