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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.pagan.magick,alt.consciousness.mysticism,talk.religion.misc,talk.religion.newage
From: nagasiva 
Subject: Religious Technology Sources/Evaluation
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 01:55:46 GMT

50030718 viii

re the source of religious/mystical technology (uncited):
#>#> Whether the source was a rogue, a carpenter or an 
#>#> epileptic camel-driver is an irrelevancy.

nagasiva:
#># why's that? when we get technology from an expert, 
#># we tend to look into their credentials, their training,
#># their background and propensity to create workable
#># tools. it isn't irrational to evaluate the designer in
#># an estimation of the *likely* effectiveness of what he
#># made toward whatever end result one may be seeking.
#># this is also true for creators of religiomagical and
#># mystical technology. if nothing else we could look 
#># for favourable and unfavourable reviews of results. 

kteis7 (apologies for any error of ID here):
# Yet it is the exception in the case of religious movements.

in terms of *ascription*, agreed. I am arguing in contast
that value *application* will vary based on the aspirant
and the objective(s) intended. where the objective is
mystical (i.e. spiritual maturation), the result is not
entirely impossible to ascertain through proximateness
to the supposed Adept(i).

# A Camel-driver meets an Archangel (who is hanging around 
# in a cave) and who proceeds to dictate a text (in a single 
# night) that will change history.

or at least the story is told that this occurred, yes.
whether that text is thereafter effective when employed
as a means of spiritual initiation and maturation is
another matter. I have exposure to some mystics who
enshrined similar texts along with some other poetics 
(i.e. Sufis) with apparent successful result -- 
albeit within a very restictive atmosphere (order).

# A Second rate conman plagiarizes, steals and lies his way 
# to publishing a book that makes him unusually rich and 
# powerful. 

that only demonstrates that the effect of achieving power
and monetary wealth through the mechanism of publishing
is possible, not that whatever he may have issued within
the publishing effort is somehow useful for any particular
purpose.

# A popular author unwittingly creates a cult when writing 
# a novel; Not a particularly good one at that.

this only demonstrates that cults may form around anything
with particular qualities, not necessarily that the novel
is actually beneficial toward achieving particular ends
beyond this.

# People do not appear to seek truth, but the confirmation 
# of their prejudices and the soothing of their fears.

in this we are agreed, but my focus was on what I was calling
"religiomagical and mystical technology". that is, techniques
for affecting (and really *improving the quality of*)
subjective experience (the essence of spirituality).

# "Negotium perambulans in tenebris" is not a prescription 
# for logical evaluation.

perhaps not (I don't know Latin), but sociological coalescence
around any particular text alone says little about the actual
internal (and external) effect that it inspires. religions,
cults, may form about many different foci of attention, 
whether texts or rites or personages/characters. the issue
which I was attempting to emphasize here, however, was what
might be expected beyond a mere development of Herd subset
(i.e. its effect through practice on the individual who
engages it, particularly as a spiritual discipline). 

generalizations about the results beyond one's own success
or failure are ALARM-SIGNALS indicating dogmatic conversion,
rather than observations borne by empirical scrutiny. the
ceremonials of former Christians may not satisfy to achieve
the same results of those who have been raised OUTSIDE of
Plymouth Brethren or other Protestant denominations. those
who benefit from technology created by individuals with
this background should be compared within the context of
their own experience and programming. 

for this reason, it is valuable to specify the character and
background of the magician involved, and how it may conform 
or contrast with original context. as many occultists have
observed, inversion or perversion of impressions from one's
childhood religious upbringing may serve as a method of
deconstruction or deprogramming, however valuable this may
be within the path or trajectory that the occultist takes.

liberation as an aim is rather a different objective for
one's writings and general expression than the construction
of some kind of cult in one's wake. identifying the nature
of the technology (that is, whether it serves merely to
coalesce a sub-Herd after one, or whether it may be used as
part of an overall re-formulation of one's internal value
and belief set) will help all those who approach it to come
to a better appreciation of its best application.

nagasiva